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Episode Summary:

Are your current assessment methods truly capturing your students’ growth and understanding in mathematics?

In a world where traditional testing often falls short of showcasing real student achievement, this episode explores innovative strategies that could redefine how we measure success in the math classroom. Whether you’re struggling to balance content standards with the need to teach mathematical practice standards or looking to implement deeper thinking methods, like The Thinking Classroom, Number Talks, Problem Based Lessons, or 3-Act Math Tasks, this discussion offers practical solutions.

Resources:

• Assessment For Growth: A Blueprint Course For Standards Based Grading in Math Class
• Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

Attention District Math Leaders:

How are you ensuring that you support those educators who need a nudge to spark a focus on growing their pedagogical-content knowledge? 

What about opportunities for those who are eager and willing to elevate their practice, but do not have the support? 

Book a call with our District Improvement Program Team to learn how we can not only help you craft, refine and implement your district math learning goals, but also provide all of the professional learning supports your educators need to grow at the speed of their learning. 

Book a short conversation with our team now. 

Episode Summary:

Quick recap

High school teachers Jen, Jon, and Yvette shared their personal and professional experiences, with a focus on teaching mathematics and the importance of a conceptual understanding of the subject. They also discussed their concerns about current assessment methods and the need for innovative approaches to measure student growth and achievement. Lastly, they emphasized the importance of teaching valuable life skills in addition to academic skills, and agreed to evaluate the effectiveness of these new methods in a follow-up meeting later in the year.

Summary

Jen’s Career Journey and Connection to Bardstown

Jen, a high school teacher in Kentucky, shared her career journey from being a children’s pastor. Jen, another teacher, discussed the influence of their family’s involvement in education on their career choices. Jen also highlighted the benefits of having her children involved in her teaching. Additionally, Jon and Yvette shared their mutual connection through Bardstown, Kentucky, a town they both found appealing due to its community-oriented atmosphere and proximity to tourist attractions. The conversation sparked interest among others who were curious about this charming town in Kentucky.

Personal Experiences and Insights on Mathematics Learning and Teaching

Jen, Jen, and Yvette shared their personal experiences and insights about learning and teaching mathematics. Jen reflected on her 8th-grade algebra experience, emphasizing the importance of understanding concepts rather than just memorizing rules. She also highlighted the value of relearning math through her children’s perspective. Jen and Yvette agreed with Jon’s insights, sharing their own journeys of learning, teaching, and relearning mathematics. They all agreed that a conceptual understanding of mathematics is crucial for both personal learning and effective teaching.

Addressing Assessment Methods and Innovation

Jen expressed her concerns about the current assessment methods in her district, feeling that traditional testing methods do not adequately reflect the growth and understanding of her students. She shared her efforts to implement portfolio work and a ‘growth day’ concept, but was seeking ways to make these initiatives more effective. Jon acknowledged the challenges Jen faced in demonstrating her students’ growth beyond content standards, recognizing the need to report on content standards while also showcasing the students’ other achievements. Yvette acknowledged Jen’s innovative teaching methods and questioned whether the main obstacle was translating her students’ achievements into their evaluation of success in the course, building public confidence with stakeholders, or both.

Effectiveness of Deeper Thinking Teaching Methods

Jen and Jen discussed the effectiveness of teaching methods that focus on deeper thinking and problem-solving. Jon assured Jen that implementing these methods consistently could lead to long-term success, even if it didn’t immediately improve test scores. Jen shared his own experiences and those of a partner district, emphasizing the importance of persevering with high-quality teaching methods. He also mentioned that these strategies had a positive impact on student performance, resulting in improved test results across all grade levels. Jen highlighted the power of evidence-based strategies in education.

Integrating Life Skills Into Classroom Assessment

Jen and Jen discussed the importance of teaching children not just academic skills, but also valuable life skills such as problem-solving, perseverance, and collaboration. Jen suggested that these skills should be regularly measured and reported to parents, in addition to traditional test scores. Jen agreed with Jen’s points and acknowledged that some barriers to implementing these ideas might be self-constructed. They discussed the freedom and empowerment to create their own methods for measuring student progress, with Jen expressing excitement about this new approach. They agreed on the importance of self-assessment and metacognition, and how this could be integrated into their classroom culture. A follow-up meeting was scheduled for later in the year to evaluate the effectiveness of these new methods.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00:05 – 00:00:30:19
Jon Orr
Are your current assessment methods truly capturing your students growth and understanding in mathematics? In this episode, we’re going to talk about how to capture, assess and report mathematical practice standards and the evidence of them in your classroom. Let’s go.

00:00:30:21 – 00:00:33:21
Kyle Pearce
Welcome to the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast.

00:00:33:21 – 00:00:38:00
Jon Orr
I’m Kyle Pearce and I’m Jon Orr we are from Make Math Moments dot com.

00:00:38:02 – 00:00:46:20
Kyle Pearce
This is the only podcast that coaches you through a six step plan to grow your mathematics program, whether it’s at the classroom level or at.

00:00:46:23 – 00:01:03:05
Jon Orr
The district level. And we do that by helping you cultivate in foster your mathematics program like strong, healthy and balanced SRI. So if you master the six parts of an effective mathematics program, the impact that you are going to have on your teachers, your students will grow and reach far and wide.

00:01:03:07 – 00:01:17:08
Kyle Pearce
Every week you’ll get the insight you need to stop feeling overwhelmed, gain back your confidence and get back to enjoying the planning and facility of your mathematics program for the students or the educators that you serve.

00:01:17:10 – 00:01:40:03
Jon Orr
What you’re about to hear is a math mentoring moment episode where you are going to speak with Jennifer Colley, a teacher from Bardstown, Kentucky. And I also want to make sure that I introduce Yvette Leamon. Yvette Leamon as a coach here at McMath moments an integral part of make moments for years, writing units, developing content, being a part of our summit every year, and her expertise.

00:01:40:04 – 00:02:01:08
Jon Orr
We’ve been working closely with Yvette for a number of years and she’s finally agreed to kind of come and work and support teachers like you who are listening right now in many ways here at McMath moments. And then one particular way is here on these mentoring moment episodes where we’re going to unpack a pebble that’s rattling around in this teacher’s shoe and together going to brainstorm some ways to overcome them.

00:02:01:08 – 00:02:15:19
Jon Orr
So here we go. Hey there, Jen. Welcome to the Make It Math Moments That Matter podcast. We’re excited to kind of chat with you, dig in and hear what’s kind of rattling around in your shoe today. So let us know where are you about so you’re coming from and let us know your teaching role.

00:02:15:21 – 00:02:36:09
Jennifer Collie
Yes. So I am a high school teacher here in Bardstown, Kentucky, and I teach primarily freshmen ninth graders, Algebra one. But I do have a couple of classes of geometry, so I have some 10th graders thrown in there. And I have not been teaching in public school for a long time, but I’ve been teaching for a very long time.

00:02:36:11 – 00:03:03:21
Jennifer Collie
So I started with the idea that I was going to go into dentistry a good idea. I didn’t do that since I really hate going to the dentist, but really I wanted to help people and I came from a family of educators and so teaching in a school setting was not super appealing to me. But it turns out I really love teaching and all of the experiences I ended up doing, whether it was working with children’s camps or writing curriculum, or I was a children’s pastor for a while.

00:03:03:21 – 00:03:26:22
Jennifer Collie
So I did a lot of training and equipping and figuring out how to help people understand deeper things, but also do it in a really fun way. And so I ended up in a teaching role in a lot of different jobs. And then just recently when we moved to this town in 2020, I had the opportunity to get my credential here in Kentucky and then started teaching seventh grade science and then did eighth grade math.

00:03:26:22 – 00:03:33:11
Jennifer Collie
And now I’m at the high school doing algebra one and geometry. So here I am, about ready to start school next week.

00:03:33:13 – 00:04:00:16
Jon Orr
Awesome. Awesome. I also came from a family of teachers and it feels like even though you’re like, I wasn’t going to go into teaching it, maybe correct me if I’m wrong, it’s like the way you described it. It’s almost like your experience is we’re all very teacher like and it gave you the taste, right? And it’s like, I think I had the very similar experience where it’s I may not have wanted to be a teacher, but all of a sudden, you know, we’re involved in this activity as a family and it puts us in that role to be a leader, a role to be a teacher.

00:04:00:16 – 00:04:27:09
Jon Orr
And I had many experiences like that, like coaching basketball and then doing this and then tutoring math. And I think when I reflect, I never really thought about it before, but hearing you say it, it’s almost like I wonder if it’s just because of the influence our parents had on us, on putting us in those situations, maybe unconsciously, but then because you enjoyed those experiences and felt probably successful and those experiences led you to go like I could do this for a living.

00:04:27:11 – 00:04:48:05
Jennifer Collie
Yes. And I think, you know, family has been a thing that has gone with it. I took a little section of our kids late elementary, early middle school years, and we homeschooled for about three years. But wherever they’ve been, we’ve been really involved as a family in the schooling process and what is happening. And so I’m actually teaching at the high school where both of my children are students.

00:04:48:07 – 00:05:05:04
Jennifer Collie
So that’s been a really fun thing. And just to see them connected and involved and I do think we sort of pass on some of those passions an enjoyment. And I’m sure I think I’ve heard you talk about before that your kids end up being at the school longer and earlier than all the other students because you’re there.

00:05:05:04 – 00:05:18:06
Jennifer Collie
And so that’s definitely the notion of my kids that, you know, they end up staying after and tutoring other students or helping with one thing or another. My daughter was here yesterday helping set up my classroom. And so they do become a part of what’s happening.

00:05:18:08 – 00:05:21:21
Jon Orr
They see the world like they experience the world for sure.

00:05:21:23 – 00:05:39:13
Yvette Lehman
I was excited reading your little intro before the meeting to hear that you are from Bardstown and you mentioned that you just moved there in 2020. And I said to John before we got on the call that I just visited Bardstown for the first time last October and were actually going back this October. We should go there. We loved it so much.

00:05:39:18 – 00:05:51:13
Yvette Lehman
Yeah, it’s a beautiful little town. We went to Mammoth Caves and then that was kind of halfway between mammoth caves and we went to Keeneland. So and it’s such a charming place to be, especially in the fall.

00:05:51:19 – 00:06:09:08
Jennifer Collie
I’m so glad you had a chance to visit. And really, I’m serious. We should connect. It has been a delightful town to get involved in, very community oriented. We do have a lot of tourists because of horses and bourbon and the caves, the national parks not too far away. So we have a lot of visitors. And so we love to just extend the hospitality wherever.

00:06:09:12 – 00:06:11:22
Jennifer Collie
But that’s so exciting. I’m glad to make that connection.

00:06:11:22 – 00:06:16:11
Yvette Lehman
Yes, it’s one of my favorite places I visited. So I would yeah, I.

00:06:16:11 – 00:06:17:08
Jon Orr
Do me want to go.

00:06:17:09 – 00:06:19:10
Yvette Lehman
I love it. It’s very charming.

00:06:19:15 – 00:06:20:05
Jennifer Collie
Nice.

00:06:20:07 – 00:06:23:00
Jon Orr
Everyone who’s listening right now is like, what’s this town.

00:06:23:02 – 00:06:24:23
Yvette Lehman
In town.

00:06:25:00 – 00:06:26:05
Jennifer Collie
Thing?

00:06:26:07 – 00:06:49:17
Jon Orr
Awesome stuff. Jen The question we ask everybody on the show is what is their math moments? The math moment is like thinking about your history, thinking about your experience as a student. Usually it doesn’t have to be a student experience, but it’s just something that impacts you around math education. It usually it’s kind of like defines initially. It may be what you thought math was, was or wasn’t, and it stuck with you all these years.

00:06:49:17 – 00:06:58:09
Jon Orr
And when we say math class, usually something pops in your mind. You get this image, this vision, this memory, this experience. We want to know yours. What’s your math moment?

00:06:58:11 – 00:07:21:01
Jennifer Collie
Yeah, well, you know, I feel like there have been a variety of ones that keep popping up the more you think about this story. But the one that initially and continues to be that math moment for me is eighth grade math. I was given the opportunity to take Algebra one, which back then, you know, it’s like this privilege now we want to make sure everyone has access to algebra one at lower grades.

00:07:21:01 – 00:07:47:24
Jennifer Collie
But at that point it was like, okay, this is special class. You’re going to take Algebra one. And my sister had taken it two years prior, and I remember it being this struggle and her class. It kind of been thrown into it without much preparation. And I went into that. You’re thinking, I’m going to beat this class if I can make A’s in my other math classes, surely I can figure out how to do this algebra thing.

00:07:48:01 – 00:08:10:17
Jennifer Collie
And my strategy for that and I don’t exactly know where this came from, but my strategy was if I could just figure out why things work the way they did, then I think I could get it. If I understood the background and so I don’t know if I drove my teacher crazy or maybe just my fellow students, but I was persistent in asking that question.

00:08:10:17 – 00:08:37:08
Jennifer Collie
If she was explaining steps or a procedure or a new idea, I would say, you know, why do we do that and why does it work like that? Or why wouldn’t you do this instead? And my teacher was just wonderful in entertaining those questions. And sometimes I think there were moments where she wasn’t exactly sure how to answer that, but she would come back to it whether it was the next day or later in the class.

00:08:37:08 – 00:09:04:11
Jennifer Collie
And she would say, Well, here’s where this is coming from, or Here’s why We want to make sure that we do this, this and this. And I feel like that year actually set me up so well to pursue math that way, to ask that question of why is it like that or how does this work? And I do think some of that came from I said I grew up in a family of educators, but we were also like our family played games together a lot.

00:09:04:11 – 00:09:22:09
Jennifer Collie
They did a lot of those puzzles and logic things where you have to figure something out. And so I already kind of had this idea that I loved patterns. I love knowing how something worked. And so algebra kind of ended up being one of those things for me. If I can just figure out how it works, then I think I can probably do this.

00:09:22:11 – 00:09:43:03
Jennifer Collie
But taking that into further math classes, even if the teachers weren’t quite at that place that they answer those questions, I was already trying to do that for myself to figure out. I guess I was just really resistant to the memorizing a rule, and I wanted to know why because I was pretty sure I would forget the rule at some point and I wanted to have some way to get back to it.

00:09:43:03 – 00:10:06:11
Jennifer Collie
And so if I could figure out the what and the why, then I could get there. And so that math class, as an eighth grader, I think, set up kind of this foundation for just how I approach math, have been told on occasion that I see things a little bit differently. I told one of my principals something about that math is beautiful and she’s like, Oh, I haven’t really heard someone say that, But I think it is that pattern, just the sense of what’s going on.

00:10:06:11 – 00:10:26:11
Jennifer Collie
And the other thing that’s been really fun, another math moment was actually my kids in math, and I remember my daughter coming home from kindergarten. This was back when Common Core was a really big deal and she came home and opened her little folder and she goes, okay, let’s super ties. And I was like, What’s what is super sized?

00:10:26:11 – 00:10:47:22
Jennifer Collie
And I was thinking, Surely I know what this word means. I’ve got a math degree. I’m sure I understand what you’re talking about as a kindergartner. And I realized it was something that we already did when we played games. And, you know, you could look at a dice and know that those five dots meant five. And I think seeing how they were learning math in a different way than I had learned it, but that it was it made so much sense.

00:10:47:22 – 00:11:01:21
Jennifer Collie
And so I feel like I have kind of relearned math as my children have gone through a different way of doing math. That’s been really fun. And so I’ve kind of had an adult math moment vicariously through my children.

00:11:01:23 – 00:11:20:20
Jon Orr
Yeah, I think that is a very insightful and I really didn’t think of it this way because I think we have as teachers three learnings of math. Like you said too, it’s like you would learn math as a student and then you learn math as a parent. You relearned it or you learn it in a different way. It’s almost like for me, I felt like it was three times.

00:11:20:20 – 00:11:37:02
Jon Orr
It was kind of like, This is the way I learned it. And then it’s like, okay, now I’m teaching it. And so now I’m learning it in a different way now. And then the third time is like, now I’m parenting students going through it and I’m relearning it again. And it’s not exactly the way I was teaching it, but also maybe it’s I need to blend those.

00:11:37:02 – 00:12:03:21
Jon Orr
Like it’s there’s three kind of little almost stages in and I think maybe probably even more when people have those epiphany moments where, like, here’s what I learned, here’s how I’m teaching it, here’s how I should have been teaching it all those years. And now I’m blending that with students. Like, there’s got to be those those moments. I’m curious, though, Jen, when you said, like you had that drive to want to know how to figure it out, what was it you wanted to know?

00:12:03:21 – 00:12:24:07
Jon Orr
The ins and outs. I was not that student. I was a student That was like, I want to figure it out because I want to be able to replicate and do well in the test. I was like, me as a student, I want to be able to get that gold star or that sticker. So me figuring out I have a census different than you figuring it out, because me figuring it was like, just, I want to make sure I know the algebraic way to solve this problem.

00:12:24:09 – 00:12:50:10
Jon Orr
And I want to know, like the ins and outs of how the algebraic way works. So the algebra solution works, But I think that’s different maybe than what you were trying to do with figuring it out, because I think B I think there’s a difference between the algebraic way in the conceptual way and understanding both. And I think I was just solely focused on going like, I got to make sure I know this and I’ll ask questions until I feel like I’m competent in memorizing the technique versus the real understanding.

00:12:50:10 – 00:12:51:10
Jon Orr
Is that true?

00:12:51:12 – 00:13:08:03
Jennifer Collie
Yeah, I think you said that pretty well. I think I was one of those students that I wanted to do. What? Like I wanted to get an A in the class and do well. And that that really was probably more intrinsic. My parents weren’t people that just was like, you have to make good grades. It was just kind of how I guess I was wired.

00:13:08:05 – 00:13:30:13
Jennifer Collie
But I think for math, even though I think I am a decent memorization of things, I think I wanted it to make sense. Like I wanted there to be some sort of deeper this is an explanation of how this really goes. I remember I was I was actually tutoring a student. I was in high school and my eighth grade algebra student, our teacher had referred the student to me to do after school teaching.

00:13:30:13 – 00:14:08:16
Jennifer Collie
And I was trying to find a different way to explain things to him. And I think we were multiplying positive and negative numbers. And I was like, conceptually, I could explain to him a positive and negative because it’s like if you have three groups of a negative one, then you have three negative ones. And that made sense. But when I tried to explain why a negative number times a negative number meant a positive, I was like, I don’t have a conceptual piece to make this make sense to you because I didn’t want to pass on to him to just this memorization technique because I was aware of my forget ability.

00:14:08:16 – 00:14:26:24
Jennifer Collie
And I was like, I think this kid’s going to forget it too. So I need something to make it make sense. And I think maybe it was that it was the desire for something to stick, like I wanted to be able to use it later, and I didn’t. Maybe I just didn’t trust my memory to pull it back out again the next year and have it if I was just memorizing.

00:14:27:01 – 00:14:43:24
Jennifer Collie
But I felt like if I had some reasoning behind it, then I could use it again later on when I needed it. And I don’t even know why I thought I would need it later. I wasn’t planning on being a math major in college. I was. I did turn out to be, but for some reason I had this notion that I just I wanted something that would stick.

00:14:44:01 – 00:14:48:19
Jennifer Collie
And I felt like if I knew where it came from, then I could pull it back out later.

00:14:48:21 – 00:15:09:11
Yvette Lehman
It’s interesting. I actually had the same aha moment that you had in eighth grade, but it wasn’t until my second year of teaching. So unlike you, in some ways I really didn’t have a good memory and I also didn’t understand, which just meant that I could maybe retain information just long enough to do well on the next quiz.

00:15:09:13 – 00:15:28:07
Yvette Lehman
And then I was essentially starting over again. And then I became a teacher and I was teaching sixth grade and realized that the students in my class had more understanding of mathematics than I did and that I really needed to go on what John described as my second learning journey, which was my journey of relearning everything I knew about math as a teacher.

00:15:28:09 – 00:15:47:10
Yvette Lehman
And it was then that I realized, like you did in eighth grade, that if I didn’t actually understand it, if I couldn’t see it, conceptualize it, understand why this and not that, it just wasn’t going to stick for me. And the whole time you were talking, it made me think of hearing Pam Harris speak and the idea that math is figure out a bell.

00:15:47:12 – 00:16:09:06
Yvette Lehman
And that wasn’t how math was presented to me as a student. It was presented as a series of steps and equations to memorize and follow. And I wish that I had had that had dawned on me like it did for you early in your math education journey that you advocated for yourself, that that was something that was critical to your learning and your understanding.

00:16:09:08 – 00:16:28:03
Yvette Lehman
So I’m a little bit jealous, but I am fortunate that I was pushed later on as a teacher in my second phase, before my also third phase as a mother of three, learning mathematics in a way that was a lot more impactful. So with that in mind, we’re going to jump into kind of what’s on your mind today.

00:16:28:03 – 00:16:33:01
Yvette Lehman
What’s your question? Maybe what’s that Pebble in your shoe as we head into a new school year?

00:16:33:03 – 00:16:53:15
Jennifer Collie
Well, this was really difficult to decide because I was so excited to talk to other people who have kind of been through these things or working through these things. I’m like, I have like 17 pebbles. I want to pull out and look through and get your feedback and hear what you have to say about them. So I was really trying hard to bring it down to just one nugget.

00:16:53:17 – 00:17:12:18
Jennifer Collie
And so I kind of picked the thing that was just most present and on the front burner and our district, I feel like, has done a really great job in the last few years of in some ways being rather progressive, at least in our area, to kind of think outside the box and do some learning experiences, both that are outside of the classroom.

00:17:12:18 – 00:17:47:13
Jennifer Collie
And I have some students who are part of this health science group that they actually they do classes at the hospital and we had some kids there doing aerospace engineering at our airport. And so they’re actually not even in the classroom doing some of this learning. And so there’s a lot of really cool stuff going on. But over the last year or two, we have moved in kind of another direction of really trying to communicate the stakeholders, the parents and and students themselves, their success and how they’re doing on a more regular basis rather than just like this end of year state testing that you don’t hear the results for like six months.

00:17:47:13 – 00:18:10:14
Jennifer Collie
And so it doesn’t really give them a sense of who they are as a student or how they’ve grown. And so one of the solutions was that we just kind of in-house as a district have created these, we call them community assessments. It’s basically a test at the end of every quarter for all of your core contents, which I understand the purpose of that and how we can use that as a measuring tool.

00:18:10:14 – 00:18:34:13
Jennifer Collie
But the struggle I’m having is that I feel like there’s so many quality things happening in the classroom that are maybe a better judge of their success and their growth as a mathematician. And I want to be able to showcase that and also for them to grasp how that’s really the part that I feel like matters, the thinking that they’re doing, the processes that they’re working through.

00:18:34:17 – 00:18:42:14
Jennifer Collie
I’ve done a lot of the one of my other classrooms that had the vertical whiteboards right now, I don’t know if you can see in my class, I’m going to Science classroom.

00:18:42:18 – 00:18:43:18
Jon Orr
Yeah, so it.

00:18:43:18 – 00:18:44:16
Jennifer Collie
Looks like Science.

00:18:44:17 – 00:18:45:18
Jon Orr
Labs.

00:18:45:20 – 00:19:16:04
Jennifer Collie
We write with chalk markers on these lab tables and they’re horizontal. So I know it’s not ideal, but it is nonpermanent and we trace it. And so it’s still kind of works the same way. And there’s a lot of thinking that I see and they see, but no one else sees. And I don’t have a tangible way to communicate that kind of outside our walls or to really let people see that, because I think it is so different from the traditional way of measuring and comparing how we’re doing that.

00:19:16:04 – 00:19:37:12
Jennifer Collie
I’m really just trying to figure out some concrete ways, and I have done the assessment module of professional development that you guys have and it’s phenomenal. And I started some things last year. We started the year trying to do some portfolio work. I had this Growth Day idea that I feel like there’s a lot of ways I can do better next year, that I’m really trying to figure out how to make that more effective.

00:19:37:14 – 00:20:01:02
Jennifer Collie
But I think kind of on the larger scale, other than just my classroom, is there a way that like this is what I could use to show the district, Hey, my kids are doing really great in this and just trying to kind of bridge that gap between everybody else’s looking at this test score. And I would love for them to see the other stuff that I feel like is a better picture, right?

00:20:01:04 – 00:20:27:14
Jon Orr
Let me just kind of repeat what I’m hearing. So you’ve been doing a lot of great things in the classroom, getting students to engage, but also engage in thinking. You’re seeing that thinking. You’re seeing growth in, say, different ways that may be measurable on content standards. And you do have to report on content stories. We all have to report on content standards and kind of demonstrate that to parents, stakeholders, principals, administration, district at a higher level.

00:20:27:16 – 00:20:47:04
Jon Orr
We are accountable for their learning and their growth on those standards. But you’re saying that there are other things that I wish other people could see in what the students have done other than, say, the results on, say, the standardized tests that happen every quarter. Is that fair to say? What you’re kind of tinkering with right now?

00:20:47:10 – 00:21:05:19
Jennifer Collie
Yes, I think the part especially I would love for them to see is that there’s some really great skills of problem solving and understanding patterns and working together with other people that I don’t know how you measure that in a way that other people can tangibly wrap their heads around.

00:21:05:20 – 00:21:26:22
Jon Orr
Got it. Got it. So now you’ve done a lot of learning. You’ve taken our assessment course in the academy, you’ve done some learning probably outside of that, you’ve done some experimenting in your own classroom. Some like you tried portfolios, you’ve tried to grow things that we recommended in in that course. I wonder if, you know, you’ve got these kind of tools or I guess sometimes we call them puzzle pieces.

00:21:27:01 – 00:21:51:19
Jon Orr
You’ve got these puzzle pieces floating around and maybe you’re just you’re just unsure of exactly how to put them together. But I think you get a sense of like what your puzzle needs to look like. So it’s kind of like, well, how do I fit this together? Now you might also go, I think I can fit some of this together, but I want to know if you have say, the portfolio ideas, you know, what to focus on and you know that you want to communicate these to stakeholders.

00:21:51:21 – 00:21:54:18
Jon Orr
My question is like, what’s holding you back here?

00:21:54:20 – 00:22:14:00
Jennifer Collie
I feel like it could be a little bit and maybe this doesn’t even exist. Maybe this is just a mental construct that I’ve created, is that I feel like there is a system that I have to fit in and my puzzle pieces don’t fit in the system, so I don’t know where to put them. We have like and I’ll just kind of give you a little notion.

00:22:14:00 – 00:22:41:03
Jennifer Collie
So there’s a spreadsheet and there’s, you know, your weekly signal and your quarterly signals and you link like concrete products to those places. And sometimes they are measured in like content areas. So out of all my algebra classes, 80% are performing at this level or 10% are at this. And so they’re where do I put that? How do I where do I have the avenue to communicate it?

00:22:41:03 – 00:23:01:09
Jennifer Collie
And maybe I need to create one. Maybe I need to say, Hey, guys. And I think some of that a little bit of maybe what’s holding me back is that occasionally I feel like I’m the only one with this voice. And it seems a little off because you think, Well, everybody else is doing this fine. Why do I have this issue that my pieces don’t fit in this system?

00:23:01:11 – 00:23:22:03
Jennifer Collie
There probably are others that are asking those same questions, but sometimes it feels a little lonely when you’re experimenting with things in your classroom and you’ve sort of like the crazy one and everybody else has a quiz or a test that fits in the box. And my lab table, chalk writing, whiteboard project presentation maybe just doesn’t have that outlet.

00:23:22:05 – 00:23:24:04
Jennifer Collie
Maybe I need to create it.

00:23:24:06 – 00:23:47:07
Yvette Lehman
Question That I was kind of pondering because to me it sounds like you are doing amazing work with your students and I hope that you’re seeing that that work is translating to increased student achievement and it is translating to improved test scores. But regardless, I think you really captured this idea that your intention was to create a classroom that promotes thinking and collaboration and problem solving and all of those higher level skills.

00:23:47:09 – 00:24:07:00
Yvette Lehman
So I think my question to you is, is the thing that’s holding you back, is it wanting to translate what you’re seeing into their actual achievement, like their evaluation of their success in the course? Or is it also building kind of public confidence with your stakeholders, including parents as well as supervisors within your district? Or is it.

00:24:07:00 – 00:24:26:20
Jennifer Collie
Both? You hit them both. You hit them both. I was like, yes, yes, that’s the problem. And I think maybe that first one you said of, I think there’s a fear of like, I feel like these are really great things and the students are excelling in so many ways and I’m I feel like they’re going to take this test and it’s not going to show that.

00:24:26:20 – 00:24:47:07
Jennifer Collie
And, you know, I have lots of people that are like, well, if you’re really teaching great, deeper thinking, they’re going to do great on the test. I’m like, Oh, I don’t know. I mean, just because they have a good process doesn’t mean they’re always going to pick Answer B When answer C looks very similar and they had a decent thinking behind it, but it was the wrong answer in the long run.

00:24:47:07 – 00:25:03:00
Jennifer Collie
And I think that’s a big fear of that. It’s not going to play out in those systems to show that it’s good, which feeds into then I don’t know that other people are going to recognize that or have confidence in this way of teaching.

00:25:03:02 – 00:25:28:05
Jon Orr
Do you have confidence that if you stick to this level of teaching and you get better at this level of teaching in the way that you want to have these benefits that students are having? And and if you are consistent throughout the year, that students will have maybe not necessarily better scores this year, but are set up for being more successful in future years.

00:25:28:05 – 00:25:34:02
Jon Orr
Like, like, do you feel like you have that belief? And then the I guess the question is, do you feel like that’s good enough?

00:25:34:04 – 00:25:55:23
Jennifer Collie
I do think I have that belief. I experience a bit of this wrestle. When I was teaching eighth graders and my principal at the time was so great to just encourage me to take some risks. And she I said, But here’s the thing. What if I get them in this mode of problem solving and thinking out loud and we’re not doing like homework checks and all that?

00:25:55:23 – 00:26:01:11
Jennifer Collie
And then they go to high school and they go right back to the do homework and I’m.

00:26:01:11 – 00:26:05:13
Jon Orr
Going to happen. You can’t control what they’re going to do in the next level or at the next teacher.

00:26:05:15 – 00:26:25:11
Jennifer Collie
Right. And she goes, so what? She goes, they’ve had this year to recognize there’s another way to think about this. And she goes, I don’t think they’re going to lose that. Now. They might have to learn a new system and a new way of doing it when they get to a different class. But she was really great about kind of reinforcing that belief of like, this is going to be impactful.

00:26:25:11 – 00:26:51:08
Jennifer Collie
And so I really do believe that. And even if all they take from my classroom experience is math is figure out or I could actually do this or it might even be fun, those are things that I feel like are transferable and would impact their experience in another class and improve their experience in another class. Because I know a lot of you know, Joe Butler’s work of our mindset has so much impact on how we perform and achieve in those places.

00:26:51:08 – 00:27:07:12
Jennifer Collie
And so I do believe that. I think maybe though I do struggle with the kind of the self doubt of am I doing the right thing, is this going to impact them? And if so, then then I just need to keep getting better at that so that it can impact them further.

00:27:07:17 – 00:27:30:04
Jon Orr
Right? I think we all struggle with that when we try a new strategy or you think about different, you know, new teaching and new ways and we’re going, hmm, is this better? Is it worth it? And I’ll tell you two experiences. I’ll tell you one from my personal experience, but also one from one of the districts that we partner with and their experience as a whole in terms of their the grade level that they focused on in the support that we helped provide last year.

00:27:30:08 – 00:27:53:09
Jon Orr
In the previous year, my personal experience was similar to yours is having this kind of dual kind of pull on going, am I? I’m providing this experience for my students, but then it’s like, okay, people would say, well, are they getting better test results? In the end, You know, we have our standardized test here in in our ninth grade, which is echo in in teachers who are from Ontario here are cringing right now when they hear that.

00:27:53:09 – 00:28:13:00
Jon Orr
But I mean, that was one of our standardized tests. And it was like they would say, well, why would you do it this way if are they getting better results? And I would say, look, look, I can’t tell you that my students this year got better results than the students in previous years. But what I can tell you is that they didn’t go down.

00:28:13:02 – 00:28:38:12
Jon Orr
They’re not worse. And I think what my students have is they stuck with problems longer. They had more confidence in problem solving around things they didn’t know. So, for example, like kids would leave questions blank. In previous years and I had less students leaving questions blank, which ultimately eventually will translate into better results because they’re, you know, trying things that they may have not not them, but I mean, comparable students weren’t trying before.

00:28:38:14 – 00:28:58:13
Jon Orr
So the second story is that’s the exact same thing we heard from one of our districts we reported this year is that they spent the last two years taking our suggestions, working through our four stage process to help their K to eight program. Think about changing the style of teaching that’s happened in their classroom. And it takes time for the teachers to believe that and teachers to try.

00:28:58:14 – 00:29:24:18
Jon Orr
Just like you’ve taken time. And those teachers two years later are now reporting that kids are sticking with problems longer on the standardized tests. The average time a kid would spend on that test is increased, which meant they’re not just giving up when they were giving up in past years. And then ultimately this year, every grade level that the team was focused on all improved in their test results.

00:29:24:20 – 00:29:46:24
Jon Orr
And it’s simply partly because of the confidence that they were giving them throughout the year. So it’s like there is power in the work that you’re doing it. It’s all you know, what you’re doing is based off research to say these are the good strategies to be using in our students, not just because it’s engaging, but because kids will learn the important things about learning math and how to retain that learning in math and how to stick with things longer.

00:29:46:24 – 00:30:04:01
Jon Orr
Like that’s the benefit that I always look at. So when you turn that to go, how do I report that? You can say, I have confidence that over time students will get better on those things because I’m giving them the skills. But in the meantime, you’re going, Well, how do I do that to like, how do I showcase that?

00:30:04:03 – 00:30:28:01
Jon Orr
And I think you were tinkering with, if I want to report on problem solving, perseverance, collaboration, why not just report on that to the people that matter? Like, why don’t I create something? Because it’s like, these are the things you value. And it’s something that I’ve learned along the way is that when you measure things, if you decide these are the things that matter and you measure them, they get better, they will get better.

00:30:28:03 – 00:30:43:24
Jon Orr
So if you’re like, Hey guys, these are the things that matter in a classroom. Like every year, I always start the year off with like thinking about the pillars of mathematics. What are the things that really matter here? And you create as a class the things that matter. And you can say that, you know, the collaboration matters, perseverance matters, the things that you just said really matter.

00:30:44:01 – 00:31:05:00
Jon Orr
And when they know that those are the things that matter in addition to their test scores and the content achievement that they’re getting throughout the year, because you have to report on that is I also want to see how you progress on these ideas and these concepts, these skills that we’re trying to build here in this room, because they really matter about what we’re doing here.

00:31:05:02 – 00:31:31:06
Jon Orr
And there’s nothing wrong with you sending home your own report. Yes, it is a little bit more work to do, but tracking and going, where are you on your perseverance? Maybe it’s a self assessment, maybe it’s a combined self assessment with you and them. It’s for, you know, and send that home to parents so that in addition to the report card that goes home quarterly, there’s an extra piece of paper that has these are the things that we also value in our classroom.

00:31:31:06 – 00:31:49:17
Jon Orr
And here’s how your students doing on these non same measurable skills, traditionally measured skills. And then in order to create that, you then have to go, What is my success criteria? How do we create a success criteria for perseverance? What does it look like when we’re doing perseverance? Well, what does it look like when we’re not? What does it look like when we’re problem solving?

00:31:49:17 – 00:32:06:12
Jon Orr
Well, what does it look like when we’re not co-creating that with your students kind of gives that insight. You’re building that culture that says these are the things that value. We want to report on that as well to everyone who’s involved with the learning in state of your learning. So I used to do that on the on my early report.

00:32:06:13 – 00:32:29:00
Jon Orr
So my quarterly reports, we made a quick and it doesn’t have to be big. It was like we reported on three things that we thought matter during the year and it was really just us commenting together on, Yeah, I think this is where we are, but because clearly defined as a group what it meant to look like, what were the actions we were doing on a regular basis that made it said, Hey, we’re doing really well here and versus say, being on this end of the scale.

00:32:29:02 – 00:32:45:21
Jon Orr
So I think maybe what holding you back was like, Do I have to create something? And then now you’re like, Maybe, I don’t know. What do you think? Does that mean? I feel like that’s a reasonable next step for you? Or is that like, No, you’re on your way off and I don’t even want to venture down that road?

00:32:45:23 – 00:33:04:21
Jennifer Collie
No, no, I think you’re right on. And I think sometimes, like I said, I think some of these barriers are sort of self constructed and there’s a good bit of freedom to be like, Ooh, I could do that. I could make my own peace, which is in some ways the mindset our district has had of like, you don’t have to wait for the state to take a test at the end of the year.

00:33:04:21 – 00:33:21:08
Jennifer Collie
We can create our own ways of doing this. So I could in a micro environment in my classroom, like, well, I don’t have to wait for the district to do this. I could do this. And it made me think while you were talking about it. So I had done the Never Say this last name right. But Peter, who writes the book about building thinking class.

00:33:21:10 – 00:33:22:09
Jon Orr
He did a little.

00:33:22:11 – 00:33:41:14
Jennifer Collie
There you go. He has a great section in there about working with your students to create rubrics on collaboration and these different things. And so that’s actually part of week one where we do a tag group tests and then then they kind of develop out of that what did we see that was good about collaborating? What did it work?

00:33:41:14 – 00:33:57:06
Jennifer Collie
And that helps us kind of form our rubric. And I’m thinking in my mind, I could use that. We could have our rubric. And I think now even just kind of playing with, Do I want to do that per student? Like, do I want to have reports that kind of show where a student is or maybe even just as a class?

00:33:57:06 – 00:34:16:20
Jennifer Collie
I think I have a tendency to just try to do all the things. And I think one of the things that helps me is just to say, you know, I’m going to do this one thing right now and we can add to that as we go. But even if as a class to say, here’s where our algebra class is as far as persevering and problem solving, and here’s what it would look like for us to move to the next level.

00:34:16:20 – 00:34:39:05
Jennifer Collie
And I think sometimes just helping people, parents and students and our district leaders see that that’s what we’re doing with this, is making a really, really great place of just kind of that convincing piece of here’s some good stuff, things that they can take beyond math class that are going to help them. So in a long answer, yes, I think that’s a great idea.

00:34:39:05 – 00:34:44:02
Jennifer Collie
Thank you, John. Thanks for the freedom to just make something up and use it. Well.

00:34:44:03 – 00:35:06:24
Yvette Lehman
I think when it comes to building public confidence and certainly parents, it’s student voice, right? Like when they hear from their child that it’s a positive learning experience, that they feel more confident that they’re enjoying math, that they see themselves as a mathematician. That’s really powerful. And certainly for supervisors as well. It really made me think about just the power of self assessment and metacognition.

00:35:06:24 – 00:35:29:23
Yvette Lehman
And if you are already generating those rubrics, what are the routines that are in place where students can stop and reflect individually on their contributions, their progress, their areas for growth? I love that idea that John shared is really building that into part of your culture, that they are reflective and that those assessments might be individualized, and as John suggested, be shared with parents as well.

00:35:30:00 – 00:35:36:10
Yvette Lehman
So with that in mind, as we come to the end of this conversation, what would you say your biggest takeaway is?

00:35:36:12 – 00:35:58:08
Jennifer Collie
Well, I think it is that the freedom to create and develop something that measures what you feel like really matters. And, you know, we’re seeing it like you said, there’s a confidence that this is working, but sometimes there isn’t an existent way or a channel to communicate that. So what that means is we just need to make them.

00:35:58:11 – 00:36:20:23
Jennifer Collie
And so I think I feel rather empowered that I could do that or I could start. And so I think that’s my take away of maybe instead of just getting frustrated or a little defeated. And how do I make this fit in this piece of just the way that it would work? And so I’m kind of excited to just try that and I’m sure there will be a number of versions of it as as the year goes along.

00:36:21:00 – 00:36:23:03
Jennifer Collie
But this is a great place to start for a new year.

00:36:23:04 – 00:36:31:19
Jon Orr
Awesome, Awesome. What would you say is your immediate next step, like just immediate next step for that move to do that creation?

00:36:31:21 – 00:36:50:15
Jennifer Collie
I think it would be having some specifics When we make those rubrics of what is measurable. I think the kids do a really great job of kind of pulling out. This is what good collaboration looks like or this is what this is, but kind of some things that then they could assess on their own that like you were saying about of a self-assessment tool.

00:36:50:15 – 00:37:07:12
Jennifer Collie
So creating a way to help them pinpoint a measuring way of those elements that they already kind of understand that this is a good thing, this is a bad thing, but what am I going to actually measure in that? And that way I will have a way to kind of empower them to gauge their own growth.

00:37:07:12 – 00:37:15:16
Jon Orr
So yeah, love it. Jen would you mind if we check in and maybe ten months from now and see how things have gone the year?

00:37:15:18 – 00:37:32:01
Jennifer Collie
I would love that. I feel like I learned so much from you guys over the years of just listening to your podcasts and using, you know, curriculum and all those things that there’s such power in other voices, you know, just kind of journey with us on that. And so, yeah, that would be great.

00:37:32:01 – 00:37:47:14
Jon Orr
Awesome. It’s a community. We have to keep our community alive and that’s how we get better is when we chat with each other and experience, learn from the experiences of each other and hear about what’s happening and what needs to be fixed or what needs to be adjusted. How you handle the situation. It’s this is how we all get better.

00:37:47:14 – 00:38:01:19
Jon Orr
But thank you for joining us here, Jen. We appreciate the conversation. We appreciate you taking time out of your busy start up to the school year and wish you all the best coming in the school year. And we’ll look out for an email from us later in the year and we’ll we’ll set up another time as you kind of catch up.

00:38:01:21 – 00:38:08:10
Jennifer Collie
That sounds great. Thank you so much. I appreciate both of you and your feedback and your involvement. So thanks so much.

00:38:08:12 – 00:38:48:20
Jon Orr
Okay. I hope you enjoyed that episode with Jennifer. That that discussion that Yvette and myself and Jennifer had about the assessment practices that she’s currently employing, she’s done a lot of learning. She dug into our assessment for growth course Inside the Math Moments Academy. She’s learned to take probably pieces of a standard based grading, pieces of outcome based assessment and build them into her your her policies, her structures and her classrooms and starting to realize that there are other things that we need to report on, things that we do need to share with parents, with other educators, with administration that really matter in our classrooms.

00:38:48:20 – 00:39:09:07
Jon Orr
In particular, we talked a lot about the math practice standards here in this episode and in this conversation and how do you corporate that into the reporting process. And my big takeaways is to continually kind of think about intentionality of what you are hoping to achieve in your reporting and in your assessment. Like what does assessment mean to you?

00:39:09:07 – 00:39:25:16
Jon Orr
This is a big question that we have used to guide the assessment for growth course in the Academy. And I think Jennifer here took that to heart and is thinking about what is it that she’s really doing and using assessment for and how do you evaluate with students are doing and how do you kind of blend things together.

00:39:25:16 – 00:39:45:18
Jon Orr
So what’s your takeaway like? Think about this going into the new school year, you may have already started the new school year. You may have just getting ready for the new school year if you’re listening to this at the time of its recording. But every school year, I always reflect on my assessment practices. Can I be improving or is it reflective of what’s happening in my classroom?

00:39:45:20 – 00:40:07:14
Jon Orr
Is it reflective what students know at the time that I go to report it? Are we using it to push student learning forward? Are we using it to inform my instruction for students? Are we using it because it’s such valuable information that we you know, for years I just used as a report card mark and not for the purpose that I now view it as, which is informing student growth.

00:40:07:16 – 00:40:40:12
Jon Orr
It’s my instruction and student progress and how they can get better. So ask yourself questions Going into the new school year, what are you using assessment for it? Can you be flexible within your constraints? Everyone has constraints about when they can report and, when they have to report, but can you be flexible inside those constraints to use it to get it what you want to, what you want to show and what you want to use that data to help do and if you’d like to take a deep dive into assessment, head on over to make math Moms dot com Force Academy join the academy and within a month you can complete the assessment for growth

00:40:40:12 – 00:41:01:17
Jon Orr
course and you’ll be on your way to understanding how we view assessment, how you can use it for growth in your classroom. So that’s a make math, almost a competition academy. Get on over there and join the academy to get into that particular course. Plus you’re going to get many of our other cars, all of our other courses, and also access to our catalog of units and tasks.

00:41:01:19 – 00:41:20:09
Jon Orr
We have over 70 plus units that span many grade levels. So you get access to all of those. As a member at the MC math moments dot com forward slash academy. If you haven’t yet already subscribed to this particular podcast, hit that subscribe button or follow button and make sure you do that because you’ll get notified when we put out episodes every Monday morning.

00:41:20:09 – 00:41:41:18
Jon Orr
It’ll be on your list on your way to work. When you’re working out or when you’re doing the dishes, you can be listening to us talk about math. You’re like, Oh my gosh, that’s awesome. Or Oh, that’s weird, but do that and you’ll be wishin or thanking us that you did. If you listen many, many times, we encourage you to hit that reading review button, Leave us that training and review if you have not yet done that all ready, it would mean the world to us.

00:41:41:22 – 00:41:57:22
Jon Orr
And we look at read all of those. It makes our day. Every time we read a new review head on over to make map Moms dot com Sports Episode 300. This is Episode 300 folks 300 episodes in the bank. You can get all the links and the resources we talked about here over there.

00:41:57:24 – 00:42:03:00
Kyle Pearce
All right. Their math moment makers until next time I’m Kyle Pierce.

00:42:03:00 – 00:42:04:10
Jon Orr
And I’m John or high.

00:42:04:10 – 00:42:06:14
Kyle Pearce
Fives for us.

00:42:06:16 – 00:42:10:22
Jon Orr
And a high bar for you. Oh oh.

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