Kyle Pearce: Welcome to the Making Math Moments That Matter Podcast. I'm Kyle Pearce.

Jon Orr: And I'm John Orr. We are from makingmathmoments.com and together-

Kyle Pearce: With you, the community of Math Moment makers worldwide, who want to build and deliver math lessons, that spark curiosity, fuel sense making and ignite your teacher moves. John, if I'm not mistaken, we are at episode number 200 and my friend, I cannot believe it. It feels like just yesterday. We started this crazy thing. We call the Making Math Moments That Matter Podcast. I'm super excited to dive into this episode. How are you feeling as we enter the 200s?

Jon Orr: Yeah. When we think back to starting this, I don't think... I think we were like, "Yeah, we're going to make this a weekly thing, a weekly episode. And we never had a timeline. We were just like, "We're just going to make them until we can't make them anymore." And you know what? I don't know if I ever thought that far ahead that we would get to episode 200, obviously I hoped we would get there, but it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool to say that we've been doing this for 200 episodes, which sounds like a lot, Kyle, it sounds like 200 hours. Does that sound right? I don't know.

Kyle Pearce: Oh my goodness. You know what inaudible be more.

Jon Orr: Well they average maybe until 50 minutes, I'll say.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah.

Jon Orr: But yeah, 200. It's been a journey. It's been awesome. We've learned so much along the way, talking to the guests, talking amongst ourselves, which is what we're doing here with you. It's just Kyle and I, we don't have a guest. We're going to talk all things about how to build an effective math teacher. And we've got some ideas. We've been doing some learning. We've been putting some ideas together on thinking about what goes into effective professional development. What are the elements that help a teacher move along their journey? And we've been doing a lot of that work with districts we work with on a regular basis as well.

Kyle Pearce: Absolutely. And something that I think is really awesome because this is episode 200. And if we start back with why we started this podcast in the first place and it's for this very reason, it's for helping to develop stronger, more confident mathematics educators. And in turn, not only were we trying to help the community out by doing this, but selfishly, as we've said before, we are also benefiting as well, this opportunity to reflect, to share, to think, to challenge one another. These are really important pieces. And it took us a really long time to connect the dots. And we've talked about this before, where both you and I, John, we sort of came into mathematics education with this mindset, with the belief that just knowing some math and what we believe we thought we knew a lot about math. And it turns out that we knew a little bit about procedural mathematics, right?
We didn't really know the content as well, or as deeply as we thought we did. And as we went down this rabbit hole over our careers, which now both of us having taught for you're going to be closing in on 20 years pretty soon. I'm just past that 15 year mark. It took us a really long time to sort start connecting the dots and realize that, oh my gosh, there's so much more to learn here. And actually just knowing math, even if we knew the math deeper than we did when we came in, there's some other elements there and we're going to start picking each other's brains here to try to reveal this for the group.

Jon Orr: And I think I have a very similar story, obviously being a high school teacher. And I think a lot of us high school teachers, and I guess I don't want to speak for everyone, but the high school teachers I've talked to me being a high school teacher. My father was a high school teacher. I think we get into, we've said this here before on the podcast that I got into teaching, probably because I like the math and I like the procedural nature of the mathematics. And I think I had this thought what you said, if I'm good here, I know math and I get it. And so we get into math thinking that I'll be okay, teaching math because I know the math. And we know from talking with so many people here on the podcast and all the learning we've been doing for the last 10 years or longer, that was not the case, right there's more to this job than teaching math.
And I think we need reminders sometimes because sitting at the lunchroom table, you're talking with a teacher across the way and they're coming in their they're saying how terrible of a class they just had, or maybe they're saying how great a class they just had or they're talking about their lesson. And oftentimes I feel like, well, they're talking about giving those examples and getting their math out. And then it's like, "Hey, I get to go. And I get to do my marking now." And I know that there's a lot more to this job than just knowing math and spitting it out to kids. And that's what we want talk about here. And as if we're going to build better educators or we're going to build an effective math teacher, there's more to just knowing the content there's pedagogical content knowledge, which has multiple parts, right?

Kyle Pearce: Yeah, absolutely. And you kind of gave an interesting perspective, maybe unique to some who are listening, right? Those who are not high school teachers may not have the same experience that you and I had where, like I said, we came in almost overconfident in how we were going to deliver math because we thought we knew a thing or two about the content. And in reality, we learned that, huh? We knew how to teach it in one way with steps and procedures that rush to the algorithm we talk about quite often, which was again, a rude awakening for us. But then if we look on the other end of the spectrum, we have some fellow colleagues who are teaching in depending where you're from in Ontario, for example, from kindergarten through grade eight, typically you might have majored in really anything in post-secondary. You could have majored in English or literacy or the arts.
You could have majored in human kinetics. You could have majored in math and some teachers-

Jon Orr: Yep, and science.

Kyle Pearce: ... teaching in elementary or science or anything like that. But the reality is that there's a lot of teachers in the elementary, PA who, and I say a lot, I don't have a stat to share with anyone, but there's oftentimes if they didn't have a math background, then they didn't even have that sort of confidence coming in. Which again might be good or bad depending on how you look at it may be good from the perspective that they knew that they might have had to do a thing or two to try to get themselves prepared. But on the other hand, if you're coming in, maybe not feeling super confident with the content already, that can definitely sort let a little bit of air out of your tires when you're trying to get going, trying to get some momentum.
So that's a huge, huge challenge. And some of the research would suggest that it's not enough is basically what the research saying. It's not enough to just know something about the mathematics in particular. I think it was this research from PMA and Frank and we'll put the link in the show notes. It said, if teachers do not know how to translate abstractions into a form that enables learners to relate the mathematics, to what they already know, they will not learn with understanding. So that kind of, to me, it hits home for both ends of the spectrum. Whether you're a high school teacher who knew a thing or two about math or whether maybe you were in elementary teacher who didn't have a math background or maybe didn't feel super confident in mathematics, the reality is it sort of doesn't matter if we don't have a way in order to help students take this learning and make it make sense in their own lives.
And that's where that pedagogical knowledge comes in, that pedagogical content, knowledge fits. And one of the challenges I think we all face John is where do we go to get this stuff, right? You can't just hope one day that you'll wake up and you have it where can we start in order to try to build our own mathematics pedagogical content just

Jon Orr: Before we talk about that piece and I want to talk about that pedagogical content knowledge kind of that framework right there. It's got pieces. I got to know the content. Obviously we just said math teacher feels like they know the content, then you've got to know the teaching part, right? You got to know how to teach and get that out. You just said, that's that pedagogy piece. But the other part too is, and I shared a story a while ago about teaching accounting. You also have to know the curriculum. You have to know what the course curriculum course standards, the progression of standards has to be as well. That story Kyle, from at least five years ago, I had to teach a section of accounting and I had not taught accounting before. And I was thrown to teach accounting at the last minute.

Kyle Pearce: You're like, "I know how to add in some track stuff." Isn't that accounting? So I should be good, right?

Jon Orr: Exactly. I feel confident in the ability to do this, except that I did not know the curriculum. I didn't know the order of progression of what needed to be taught when and I fumbled and I was used to teaching math for all this time and I was implementing all these great math strategies in my math classroom. But when I translated over to accounting, it was like, I just feel it was a brand new teacher again, I just had to survive. And I was teaching again, very procedurally and very kind of bland. I didn't have that repertoire of activities for that classroom and to know the curriculum itself. So I feel like there's this three pronged approach. And if you're watching over on YouTube right now, cows put up an image from the research that we've been using here from column and woo.
And it almost looks like this big bucket. And really, we got these three prongs here, but content teaching and curriculum, we know all three of these pieces of the pedagogical content, knowledge it, but it comes in and you'll see right at the top of this kind of bucket, which is probably the most important. It all comes from your belief. What is your belief about pedagogical content knowledge? And I think Kyle, this is where it changed for us is because we came into teaching and we had this belief that I'm going to be okay, math teacher, because I know the math and I like math. I like kids. I think this will be a fine job. And then what happened for us was that these beliefs of ours kind of started to get shifted because of the way the teaching. So this pedagogy, it's almost like there's this cycle happening here and it's actually represented in the picture.
And for me it was like, "I wanted to teach math this way. We wanted engagement. We wanted more kids to ask questions." These things started to change. So some pedagogy started to change. And then we realized moving over to the content knowledge side of things, were like, "You know what? Some of this pedagogy's forcing me to think about actually how deeply I know the mathematics." Because I thought I knew the mathematics, but I think having a degree in mathematics, I realized what later that I knew very, a procedural view of mathematics, not a very conceptual understanding of math we've said here, lots of times, common example is not understanding the one visual representation of the Pythagorean theorem is these actual squares on the side of the triangle that blew my mind as a teacher.
Talking about your two ways of division, the two types of division that blew your mind as a teacher. We didn't know that. And so what happened was that pedagogy piece started to influence the content piece, but then it came back and started influencing the pedagogy piece because we realized that our understanding of the content is different. Now we have to change our teaching strategies to reflect that new knowledge that we have. And we have to keep referring to the curriculum and it all came from our beliefs of how we want to view teaching mathematics.

Kyle Pearce: And it's funny because for those, again, those on YouTube, you can see this image here, but John, you described it pretty well. It's almost like picture this bucket and beliefs is part of the handle or it's like a rope attached to this handle that goes down to this bubble that says pedagogical content knowledge. And it's interesting because as you were talking, I was envisioning when I first came into teaching, I had my beliefs. Everyone has them, whether you like it or not, you have some form of belief and whether you're aware of them or not, they're there. And those can shift over time. Of course. But my beliefs sort of made me think that this was an empty bucket. So those who are watching, you'll kind of know what I'm talking about here because it's like the edges of the bucket are content and on the other edge is curriculum.
And when I came in it was like, "I thought I had content. So I thought I had that part good to go." It turns out didn't, it turns out that I actually had a lot to learn in the content specific area in particular around how mathematics actually works and how it develops and how one concept connects to another. Because that from the research is telling us that actually in order to make connections and have new learning with understanding, we need to be able to connect it to some of our prior knowledge and to the world around us and all of those things. And then on the other hand it was like, oh, as a new teacher, I was like, I don't know the curriculum very well and no content, but I'm not exactly sure what I need to teach. And you address that or articulated that well with your accounting example where you come in, you're like, "I'm not exactly sure what I need to teach to this class. So I'm working on the edge of this bucket."
But for many years I completely missed the entire interior of this bucket, which is a bunch of bubbles that comes right straight down. One is teaching. And then underneath it look at how complex that is John underneath teaching, which you would think, "I thought about that as a teacher, that I would have to know a thing or two about how to teach the math." But it turns out that I didn't, I just thought it was about knowing it and then just telling kids and everything was going to be great. But underneath there from teaching, it says, knowing students thinking, and then from knowing students thinking it's like addressing students, misconceptions, engaging students in math learning, building on students, math ideas, promoting students thinking of mathematics and all of these things. So picture that content curriculum and those bubbles under teaching all point to the bottom of this bucket that you're describing for us, which is student learning.
So there's three arrows that point to student learning. And really I had, I'm going to say a dotted arrow coming from content, because it wasn't a complete understanding of content. And I had an almost non-existing curriculum arrow for a very long time until you get familiar with the curriculum. And then I had nothing coming down the middle, which is that third arrow pointing to student learning. And I'm telling you right now, John, it's taken you and I a really long time and we're at 200 episodes. It's taken us a long time. And a lot of learning, a lot of presenting, a lot of conferences and we're still learning. We're still trying to put this bucket together each and every day we learn something new about how math works and with every single thing that we learn here, it strengthens all of these arrows, all of these connections so that we can help address student learning more effectively so that more students feel good about being mathematicians themselves.
So for this particular episode, John, I think some people are sitting there going like, "Okay, this is complex. There's a lot to this now, what do I do? If I'm an educator, where do I go? How can I access some learning in order to strengthen content, curriculum, teaching, which we're going to call altogether lump together as pedagogical content knowledge? Where can people go? Because here's the other sad reality, John, is that not every educator in every district has the benefit of receiving professional learning or development in their own districts. Sometimes it's only a handful of educators. Sometimes it's no one at all, depending on funding. So what are some ideas that we can share? One of them, I'm going to say they already know it's the podcast they're listening to it right now. This is obviously a great source for you to keep that going. Well, let's start digging into some other options.

Jon Orr: Yeah, for sure. And I'd like that you pointed it out if we're going to build effective educators. So if I'm a district leader, one of my tasks is to support and build my educators to be the best teachers that they can be. I think we've just kind of said it with this bucket is that we have to build out our understanding of pedagogical content knowledge, which involves the content knowledge, knowing the mathematics, knowing the conceptual understanding of the mathematics and the procedural understanding of the mathematics and then the teaching strategies are important. And then also knowing your curriculum, your particular course and say the progression of ideas. So we need to build on all three of those. And like you said, Kyle, there's lots of ways that we've been learning over the years. One is we listen to lots of different podcasts, not just to talk with people on our podcast, but we listen to other podcasts to build that content knowledge and to build that pedagogical knowledge.
One way that we get our hands on as many books as we can, one way for the teaching or the pedagogical knowledge. I grabbed Dylan Williams book on assessment last year and end dove into that. And that was the basis for a lot of the learning that we did with our assessment for growth course and our assessment for growth days with our students. So getting our hands on books, the professional learning communities at our schools have been great. In my past. We've been lucky to have lesson study for a number of years in our building. So we partnered up with other teachers, we co-planned lessons. We watched each other deliver those lessons. That was an amazing experience and I remember learning that.
That's got to be probably the most beneficial professional development experiences I've been a part of is going through that process of being in other teacher's classrooms, watching the students interact with the things that we developed, because when you're teaching you don't get to see some of those things that you can see when you're not, you say facilitating a lesson that you get the behind the scenes kind of look at that, those things for sure.
And then you can pivot to conferences. You can say, "Hey look, we're recording this mid to end of September. We're actually getting ready to head out to Los Angeles or Anaheim to head to the NCSSM, the NCTM conference for 2022, we'll be heading out there. Conferences have been also wealth of knowledge. You can pick and choose who you're going to go see what resources you're going to get. I know that I've pulled lots of different classroom activities from attending those conferences. Oh you know is always a big one. And we do that in the springtime here in Ontario, going to conferences, not only getting resources, getting ideas, but meeting people, sharing ideas, they've been invaluable. Kyle, I think we even met for the first time at a conference like face to face. So you can't discount say going to conferences if you can, but like you said, not everybody can get to a conference because they cost thousands of dollars to fly to a place like Los Angeles.
Even in Ontario, we would have to drive. It's always near Toronto. That's a three hour drive for us. That's a couple night stay in a hotel. The conference themselves are not cheap. You're running $500 a ticket just to get in and go to these sessions. So even online conferences last year were charging money to attend an online conference, big ticket items, school boards, sometimes don't foot the bill for those. So sometimes that kind of makes a disconnect with the professional development that we can access. So those are some places that we build those areas more probably when you go to a conference more of the times you're getting your pedagogical knowledge, you're getting your teaching knowledge of strategies or lessons and activities from these maybe belief changes when you're going to these conferences as well. Cal, where would you go to build your content knowledge? Like your math understanding knowledge? What has probably been for you the most useful resource or way that you've built that for you? Because I know that you've done a ton of learning on the content knowledge side.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah, absolutely. I would argue for me what got me thinking about it is some of my conference experiences be it face to face or personal. So there's a lot of great learning that can happen. And sometimes it just takes almost like a little light bulb for you to go off to go. And before I dive into a specific scenario and I have shared this before on a few podcasts and we've had some wonderful guests come on, who I did some learning with this particular experience, but just kind of backing up to the whole in-person conference experience and the cost associated if I'm sitting there and I'm maybe you're an educator, maybe you're a district leader. When you think about it's almost as if conferences themselves. I think typically who you run into are people who are in coaching roles or district mentor roles or district leader roles of some type where it's almost like they're going out from districts.
They're being sent out a small group, almost like a little troop goes out to capture as much as they can and then bring it whatever they can back and then share that to educators in their own district. And there's a few challenges there. So you go out, you get this message and you come back. First of all, you were only there for a couple days, which means you heard maybe a speaker speak for 60 minutes and they might have an amazing message, but is that enough time for it to really resonate with you enough to be able to feel confident enough to go back and then share that with others? So there's some challenges there for me, the experience that really shifted my thinking was that proportional reasoning symposium, that I was a part of a small niche group of educators that came together in researchers who basically argued about what is a proportion or a proportional relationship basically for an entire weekend.
And first of all, it was overwhelming. But what I realized in that experience was how little I really knew when somebody says, what is a proportional relationship and everyone in the room comes up with a different definition that aren't just synonymous. They weren't just like, oh yeah, that's just another way of saying the same thing. It was like, no, no, that actually means something different. That's really eyeopening. And that was sort of the experience for me. But if I'm an educator listening or if I'm a district leader listening and you're thinking, how do I get more of that for me? Of course there's a book that I think is amazing. I actually have it right here on my desk and the new version of it or an updated versions coming out. We had Jennifer bay Williams on, she was one of the co-authors with Van De Walle.
And this particular book right here has so much in it. It's a pretty thick one, but it's not like a straight read. I mean, you could go cover to cover, but really there's sections where it actually breaks down different content pieces where you read through it. And sometimes you go, "What does that mean? And then you reread it again and you start to realize again that you don't know, maybe as much as you thought you did and it's not to make you feel bad about yourself so that you just kind of know there's more to this story. And the more I understand the better off I'm going to try to help students in my classroom. Now that brings me though John to... So if conferences are challenging for educators to get to because of the cost supply teacher, some districts are just like, "We can't let you go because there's no one to cover your class while this is going on."
Sometimes it's not even a money issue. I mean, oftentimes it is the challenge. Again, if you are lucky enough to get out to NCTM, you go out there or you go to the local conference or whatever it might be. You're like, you get a bunch of these presentations, but then you come back and it's sort of like, "Huh, it was great to be there live in person." But I don't really have an opportunity to reexperience that scenario. What else might people do if they're going, I don't have this opportunity, but I do want to start digging in a little bit here so that I can find someone like for me Van De Walle was a huge one for me, Kathy Fosno is a big one to find your person, that person that resonates with you, that you want to do some more learning from where can people potentially go that isn't going to cause them to have to drain the bank account.

Jon Orr: Well, that's when you reach out and you register for an online conference, Kyle, that's why we build so you're like being coy there a little bit, right? It's like, "Yeah. Where could you go?"

Kyle Pearce: Yeah. John, can you help answer this question?

Jon Orr: Yeah. And I'm glad you said that, but if you've been listening to our podcast for maybe you've listened for all 200 episodes, put your hand up right now. If you have wow.

Kyle Pearce: Look at you all amazing.

Jon Orr: But if you've been around that long that every year we host an online conference and the reason is what Kyle was looting to. He wasn't doing it to kind of like, "Hey, let's make sure we talk about that thing." The reason we host our online conference in November every year is for the reasons that you just stated, we want to bring professional development to as many people as we can for as accessible as it can be. So that is why we designed that conference. This is why we do the podcast. The podcast is a free medium that you can consume to give you a spark of learning to go off and explore that idea more or go that idea more. That's really why we designed the podcast. And then the summit, our virtual summit in November is taking that a little bit further. We cover the costs.
We get sponsors to cover the costs so that it's completely free for you. It's online. So there's not as many costs as you think so we don't have to worry. And this is sometimes why we are wondering why all those last few years that some of those virtual conferences were charging money. It's because well we've been running on virtual conference for four years and it's free. Let's just make it free. And this is the reason we do that is so that everyone could participate in that week.
And all you need is the internet, which we probably, most of us all have and you need a computer and that's it and some time and you're going to be like, "Look, I'm going to watch one, two, maybe three sessions on a Saturday or a Sunday." And I'm going to also experience these professional development sessions that are just like the ones that are at NCTM this week. We're going to see Nat Banting in Los Angeles live face to face, but he's also presenting in November at our conference in the virtual summit. Kyle, I know that you're excited for Kathy Fosno being one of your go to people for a lot of learning. And we've talked with her on the podcast. We're excited. I think this is her first time joining us in the summit this year.

Kyle Pearce: Second time, second time.

Jon Orr: Second times?

Kyle Pearce: Because this is our fourth summit. I know there's a lot of sessions there. I think we're going to be closing in over a hundred sessions. I think this year be in total. Yeah. We'll have over a hundred sessions that have happened at that summit, which is pretty awesome.

Jon Orr: Yeah. So is the reason is we want to make sure that anyone can access the high quality professional development that people who go to conferences get, and this is why we've made it free. And we think it has to be free for that reason.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, one thing I will say is that sure. If I had the option to go see the people at the summit live in person versus watching it on a webinar format, of course I'm going to take the in person any day of the week. However, if one is going to cost me thousands of dollars to do, that's a harder commitment to make. And this one is going to be 100% free for you to engage in live over that entire weekend of November 19th and 20th, 2022.

Jon Orr: Mark it down, mark it down.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah, mark, that thing down and registration is open for those who are listening @makemathmoments.com/summit. I'm telling you just to be able to access that. And in particular, the people I'm talking to specifically are those who may not have the opportunity to go to many conferences, right? If you are that person listening, you've got to check it out. And here's the other thing though, if you are listening because you are the type of person who is going to be at NCTM with us next week and NCSM, if you are that person, don't just like, "Go, oh, I've been to conferences. So I'm not going to sign up." Even if you don't think you need to, because you've done all these live ones, you need to share it with your colleagues, share it with your coworkers, with your friends who are in education because the reality is that for a lot of people, if they're not listening to the podcast, the people who are listening to the podcast are the type of people who are likely going to sign up for the summit and they're going to attend it.
So that's awesome. But what I really want to advocate that you do is, I mean, it's great for you that you get to improve your math pedagogical content knowledge, but in order to get better alignment across your school, across your district, you want to be sharing this opportunity and not just sharing once you want to be encouraging people. And actually John, this year in particular, we've made a really intentional effort to be reaching out to our district leaders that we have, that we know of that are in the math moment maker community, because you friends have a lot of influence in terms of spreading news to educators, but you also have the opportunity to nudge towards people considering doing something. Now it is on a weekend. So that is something like people will have to sort of go, okay, I'm going to have to take some of my own free time to do this.
But district leaders also have opportunities. And John, we've got some great links in our show notes for our district leaders to grab some great guides that will help to at least give some of your colleagues, some of the why you heard this podcast so you know why content knowledge is important and pedagogical content knowledge is important, but they may not. So we've tried to craft some resources that will make it easier for you to help communicate that. Why to your colleagues. So more of them are willing to raise their hand and take part.
And we even have some opportunities as well for districts to potentially offer replays to your district, to your colleagues throughout the entire school year. So this kind of like a specific pitch towards our district leaders that just sharing it one time, you will get a handful that will sign up, but if we're strategic about it, you can promote active mathematics learning over an entire weekend and potentially make some real big beliefs and understanding of content or pedagogical content, knowledge shifts in your math educators, which can really help you get closer to those district level goals.

Jon Orr: For sure, for sure. So if you are that district leader, you can actually head to the show, note links below, or you're going to go right now to make math moments.com/summit district that's makemathmoments.com/summit district. And then you can grab our three steps to sharing professional development. And also our workbook that guides you on how to share that with your teachers gives you sampled emails, sample strategies, sample that's really timelines-

Kyle Pearce: I feel like full blown plan right like step by step guide and will help you craft that message in a way that's going to resonate with your educators in the most impactful way. So now let's not forget about everyone else who isn't a district leader. So your friends already heard where you can go to sign up and that's at make mathmoments.com/summit. And that my friend will get you signed up and ready to go. And of course that link, you can share it far and wide and we encourage you to share it far and wide.
So we really have two calls to action here. So I mean our main call to action is that we want you actively seeking opportunities for yourself or kit to continue seeking those opportunities, to develop your own mathematics content or, and pedagogical content knowledge. So in order to do that, or one way you can do that is signing up for that summit and sharing that summit. So not only helping yourself, but make sure you're helping others and encouraging others, not shaming others, if they're not interested or they can't. And they have family commitments, but ensuring that they know what's there and why it's important for us to all continue to grow our own understanding of the math and the pedagogical approaches that we use in the classroom.

Jon Orr: Awesome. Awesome. So we are really hoping to... We've had in the past thousands and thousands of teachers register for that weekend and participate in that weekend. So we are super excited to do it again. And we are looking forward to seeing you in one of those live sessions, they are all live sessions. There are no recorded sessions. So we will probably see you in one of those I'm sure. So in order... Hey, to ensure you don't miss out on our new episodes, as we've just ended this one, be sure to hit subscribe on your podcast platform. If this is your first episode, welcome and just hit subscribe right now. If this is your 200th episode, congratulations, you're our hero. Yes, you are right here with us and you probably already hit subscribe. So great job there. I showed out some links to resources from this episode and transcripts, they can be downloaded from the web. You can head to makemathmoments.com/episode200. Again, that's makemathmoments.com/episode200.

Kyle Pearce: Well, John, listen, I think bye now. People have already signed up for that summit @makemathmoments.com/summit.

Jon Orr: They jumped over-

Kyle Pearce: District friends have headed over to makemathmoments.com/summit district to get all their amazing goodies and well until next time I'm Kyle Pearce.

Jon Orr: And I'm John Orr.

Kyle Pearce: Hi fives for us.

Jon Orr: And a high five for you.