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Episode Summary:

How can you keep ALL students engaged and excited about math when the topic doesn’t seem to lend itself to engaging and insightful ideas? 

If you’re struggling to maintain your students’ interest in math or finding it difficult to balance foundational skills with engaging activities, this episode offers practical solutions that could transform your classroom experience.

We speak with Kindergarten teacher Nichole Collins who’s on a journey to engage all the young minds in her classroom especially when the topic doesn’t seem to be that exciting on its own. 

Resources:

• Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units 

Attention District Math Leaders:

How are you ensuring that you support those educators who need a nudge to spark a focus on growing their pedagogical-content knowledge? 

What about opportunities for those who are eager and willing to elevate their practice, but do not have the support? 

Book a call with our District Improvement Program Team to learn how we can not only help you craft, refine and implement your district math learning goals, but also provide all of the professional learning supports your educators need to grow at the speed of their learning. 

Book a short conversation with our team now. 

Episode Summary:

Nichole’s Math Education Memories Discussed

Jon and Nichole discussed her experiences and memories related to math education. Nichole, a kindergarten teacher from Richmond, Virginia, shared that her math memories mainly revolve around her elementary school years. She recalled being placed in higher level math classes in 3rd and 4th grade, which made her feel good at math. However, she was later moved to lower math classes in middle and high school, which made her question her math abilities.

Teaching Math in Diverse Classrooms

Nichole and Jon discussed their experiences and approaches to teaching math in diverse classrooms. Nichole shared that she has moved away from traditional grouping structures, instead focusing on creating a collaborative and inclusive learning environment where all students can contribute regardless of their ability level. She also mentioned the challenges she faced in the past and her current aspirations for her class. Jon encouraged her to reflect on her past experiences and what she aims to achieve in her current teaching role.

Challenges in Engaging Kindergarten Students in Math

Nichole and Jon discussed the challenges Nichole’s kindergarten class was facing with engaging students in math conversations and promoting a deeper understanding of math concepts. Nichole shared that they were trying to make math more interactive and exciting by using manipulatives and real-life scenarios, but she expressed frustration about the inconsistency of the students’ engagement and understanding. Jon listened and asked for more details about Nichole’s teaching methods and the specific issues she was facing.

Balancing Math Talks in Kindergarten

Nichole and Yvette discussed the purpose and balance of math talks in kindergarten. Nichole explained that while there is a need for foundational skills, she also wanted to make the lessons more engaging to prevent disengagement. Yvette questioned the goal of these talks, whether it was to establish a routine or to support a culture of learning. Nichole clarified that it was both, but expressed a desire to make the routine moments more intriguing. Jon emphasized the importance of intentionality in their approach and the need to balance routine with engaging, flashy content.

Improving Student Engagement in Math Lessons

Jon emphasized the importance of focusing on student engagement in the classroom, particularly in math lessons for kindergarten students. He questioned the purpose of various classroom routines and activities, urging for clarity on whether the intent was to reinforce concepts, develop relationships, or foster symbol recognition. Yvette agreed with Jon’s points and added that she envisions a classroom where all students have a voice and engage in routines. She suggested that brief, focused discussions could be more effective than lengthy lectures. Nichole concurred with Yvette’s views, noting that math discussions often felt more like teacher-student interactions rather than true math talks.

Improving Student Engagement in Classroom

Nichole and Jon discussed strategies to improve student engagement in the classroom. Nichole suggested implementing hands-on activities, pairing students for math talks, and using a ‘bucket’ system to manipulate objects as a means of promoting active engagement with the subject matter. Jon agreed with these proposals, indicating a potential shift towards a more interactive and communicative teaching approach.

Balancing Engagement and Time Management in Classroom

Jon and Nichole discussed the challenges and considerations of implementing engaging and effective learning activities in the classroom. Nichole expressed concerns about the time-consuming management aspect of such activities. Jon emphasized the importance of intentionality in deciding whether the effort put into preparation and management is worth the potential benefits for students. They agreed that while the focus may not be the same every day, there should be an overall intention to support numeracy and other important concepts.

Planning for Intentional Teaching and Learning

Nichole and Jon discussed their plans for the upcoming school year, focusing on the importance of intentionality in teaching and learning. Nichole emphasized the need to determine how much time should be dedicated to helping students understand certain concepts and to build structures early in the year. Jon agreed, highlighting the need to experiment with teaching methods to see what works best with different groups and individuals. They also discussed the importance of assessing student progress and understanding their learning responses. Nichole was invited to rejoin the discussion in May to share her experiences and insights.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00:05 – 00:00:22:04
Jon Orr
How can you keep all students engaged and excited about math when the topic doesn’t seem to lend itself to engaging and insightful teaching moves? In this episode, we’re going to talk about how to keep all students engaged during a math talk. And we’re going to talk with the Cole Collins kindergarten teacher about her insights in this episode are going to pertain to all grade levels.

00:00:22:04 – 00:00:25:03
Jon Orr
So stick around. Here we go.

00:00:25:05 – 00:00:41:22
Kyle Pearce
Oh, welcome to the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast.

00:00:41:22 – 00:00:46:20
Jon Orr
I’m Kyle Pierce and I’m John or we are from that moment. Scott This is.

00:00:46:20 – 00:00:53:04
Kyle Pearce
The only podcast that coaches you through a six step plan to grow your mathematics program, whether it’s at the.

00:00:53:04 – 00:01:11:06
Jon Orr
Classroom level or at the district level. And we do that by helping you cultivate in foster your mathematics program like strong, healthy and balanced SRI. So if you master the six parts of an effective mathematics program, the impact that you are going to have on your teachers, your students will grow and reach far and wide.

00:01:11:08 – 00:01:25:10
Kyle Pearce
Every week you’ll get the insight you need to stop feeling overwhelmed, gain back your confidence and get back to enjoying the planning and facilitating of your mathematics program for the students or the educators that you serve.

00:01:25:12 – 00:01:48:17
Jon Orr
All right. You’re about to hear another math mentoring Moment episode where we dive into a pebble that a math mill maker person just like you is experiencing in the classroom. And together we’re going to brainstorm some ideas, suggestions and next steps for them to take back to their classroom and then try out. And oftentimes we will reach out to them later and find out what’s happening, what’s changed since the this particular conversation.

00:01:48:17 – 00:02:16:24
Jon Orr
I also want to introduce you in this episode to Yvette Lemon. Yvette Lemon is a new coach here at Make Math Moments. Also, you may have recognized her in some of our training sessions summit. She’s often presented each year at our virtual summit, and she’s also our lead content writer on the magic math moments. NBC.com website and tasks and units that are freely available for you to download using your classrooms.

00:02:17:00 – 00:02:37:09
Jon Orr
Yvette has been working with us for a number of years. She is joining us here in this particular episode to dive in and listen in on Nicole’s Pebble. And together, Nicole, myself, John and Yvette are going to unpack that pebble and come up with the next steps. Hey there, Nicole. Welcome to the mic. Math Moments That Matter podcasts.

00:02:37:09 – 00:02:46:02
Jon Orr
We’re excited to have you here today. Do us a favor. Let us listen to where you come from and let us know what your teaching role is.

00:02:46:04 – 00:02:58:19
Nichole Collins
Well, thank you very much for having me. My name is Nicole. I am a kindergarten teacher in Richmond, Virginia. I have been teaching for about seven years. So finding kindergarten home so far.

00:02:58:21 – 00:03:21:09
Jon Orr
Great. Great. Yeah, like kindergarten is near and dear to my heart. My wife is a kindergarten early childhood educator. So we’re talking about kindergartners and stories that come home every single day. All the craziness and the excitement and the messiness that happens in kindergarten is something I hear about every single day. Let’s jump right in here. Like when we talk about math moments when we say, Hey, what’s your math moment?

00:03:21:09 – 00:03:41:17
Jon Orr
What’s a moment that sticks with you from your past that you carry forward? It’s when we say, like when you think about math class, things pop in our mind and it defines, I think, what we think about math class or what we had think about math class. So when we say math class, the core, what would you say is like has stuck with you All these years as a memorable math moment?

00:03:41:19 – 00:04:03:03
Nichole Collins
Yeah. So somebody who listens to your podcast, I’ve thought about this a lot and looking back, I still go at the elementary lens and I don’t have a lot of memories of math in elementary school. I remember that when I got into third and fourth grade. They pushed us. They separated us between higher level math students and lower math students.

00:04:03:03 – 00:04:20:17
Nichole Collins
So we switched classes a lot. And that was when I first kind of realized that I thought like, Oh, I was good at math because I went with the kids who were in the higher class math class. And I remember feeling like I was good at math for a long time, going on into middle school and then getting into high school.

00:04:20:17 – 00:04:36:12
Nichole Collins
I felt that I was pushed back into the lower math classes again. So math for me has always been a little bit of you’re either good at it or you’re not so good at it and you need a lot of extra help. And it was never really a feeling of like, No, we can do this. So it’s fun.

00:04:36:12 – 00:04:42:05
Nichole Collins
There’s different things that are happening. It was just like tracked very often.

00:04:42:07 – 00:05:00:13
Jon Orr
Gotcha. Now, I think lots of listeners might feel similarly to that, but when you think about your moment and when you think about what you’re doing in classrooms today, what do you think is what have you carried for? Like how does that moment affect what you’re doing in the classroom these days?

00:05:00:15 – 00:05:30:00
Nichole Collins
Yeah, so we’ve kind of gone through a few different structures in the math class. We’ve done math workshop a little bit, which then did feel still like some of that tracking that you had your groups of kids who were maybe a little bit lower, your groups of kids who were not really understanding it. And I try as much as possible to steer clear of that if we can, and allow them to spend more time together and just groups that maybe this group is all Spanish speaking kids.

00:05:30:00 – 00:05:56:13
Nichole Collins
And so they’re kind of playing with a dual language approach to math, more so or maybe this group is just kids. They just all sit around the same table together all the time and they want to do it together. So it’s something that I’ve been looking at is going less and less into kind of math groups and more into kind of we can all explore math together no matter what level you’re on and matter how how you can count right now.

00:05:56:15 – 00:06:23:16
Jon Orr
Right. Right. When you think about kindergartners and say those groupings, what do you seeing as what you’re really striving like? What do you really striving for in your classroom right now? So when you think about kindergarten learning and learning mathematics, like if you’re cognizant of grouping your cognitive tracking, you’re kind of thinking, I know that this is an issue for me in my past, but also I know that this is something important for students in trying to manage a kindergartner class.

00:06:23:20 – 00:06:30:22
Jon Orr
I’m trying to get a sense of what is it that you want your class to look like and what are you striving for in a class currently.

00:06:30:24 – 00:06:58:18
Nichole Collins
So I think I want my class, like I said, to feel a little bit more. We’re all just engaging in math together, whether that’s through more hands on things, and that no matter what ability you are, you can still add to the conversation that you don’t feel like you are left out, that in some way you still feel like you can answer the question or answer or like, put your input into the problem and it’ll still be valid.

00:06:58:18 – 00:07:12:23
Nichole Collins
You’ll still have something to give to the group. So yeah, a little bit more hands on and a little bit less feeling, a little bit more of them exploring math and less me teaching math at them to some extent.

00:07:13:00 – 00:07:27:19
Jon Orr
Gotcha. So what’s a pebble that’s rattling around your shoe right now? We want to explore that with you. We want to kind of like dig in like what’s going on. We can kind of nail down here today so that you can feel, you know, more successful about achieving the vision that you want to your math class.

00:07:27:21 – 00:08:02:18
Nichole Collins
Yeah. So kind of off of that same point, something that we’ve been having a hard time with every so often has been the idea of math talk or math chats with kindergartners, especially because our curriculum is so thin to some extent that we really focused mostly on numeracy skills, learning to count, learning how to count, objects that there’s not a whole bunch for them to talk about in an exciting way sometimes, or at least we haven’t found an exciting way for them to discuss those things.

00:08:02:20 – 00:08:16:21
Nichole Collins
So we’re kind of trying to figure out how we can get them to engage in math conversations with each other when all we’re really asking them to talk about is numbers and number concepts.

00:08:16:23 – 00:08:33:11
Jon Orr
Gotcha. And what are you doing right now to try to engage those students? Paint us a picture. What does classroom look like now? Knowing that you want more engagement in math talk, knowing that there’s we’re talking about counting and numbers sense, but paint us a picture of what you’ve tried.

00:08:33:13 – 00:08:51:10
Nichole Collins
Yeah. Yeah. So some of the things that we’ve done have been when we talk about more and less will bring out some of our manipulatives and talk about if we were to create a pet store and our pet store, there had to be one more animal in each section of the pet store. So we start off with one cat.

00:08:51:16 – 00:09:24:04
Nichole Collins
Then how many dogs are there be and then how many lizards either can be and so they can kind of build it with the manipulatives and kind of create this little environment that each section has one more and they have to be the ones who figure out how we move through the pet store in that way. We’ve also done kind of later on in the year when we talk more about addition concepts, we’ve done a again, with those manipulatives, we’ve done an aquarium visit, quote unquote, that will have different fish tanks, have different types of sea animals in them and how many are in each thing.

00:09:24:10 – 00:09:42:13
Nichole Collins
So we’re trying to make it something that they can kind of visualize and work through with a partner and kind of talk with a little bit more. But as I said, kind of especially in the beginning of the year, it’s a little bit less exciting to them. It’s a little bit more of just we’re going through one through ten for quite some time, right?

00:09:42:13 – 00:09:50:11
Jon Orr
And it sounds like you’re trying different things to get at those this classroom you’re looking at, but what makes you feel like it’s not doing the thing you want it to do?

00:09:50:13 – 00:10:16:12
Nichole Collins
I think it’s just inconsistency is the biggest piece. We’ll have kind of these ideas every so often that we are excited about and that we can kind of bring into our classroom when we feel good about them and then they’re not there the next week that we don’t feel that way about every single learning target, every single topic that some of them feel a little bit easier to handle and manage, some of them don’t.

00:10:16:14 – 00:10:46:20
Nichole Collins
And sometimes I will say that the problem seems to be a little bit more that with such a wide variety of learners, sometimes the higher learners are able to do this a little bit more easily and the lower learners just get really lost. So kind of figuring out where the balance is between this is something that they can do that everybody can do, and that this is exciting, that they’re engaged in it, that they’re not feeling left out.

00:10:46:22 – 00:10:52:24
Jon Orr
Got it. Got it. Now, Yvette, what do you think about, you know, what the schools kind of experiencing and what she’s been trying.

00:10:53:01 – 00:11:15:22
Nichole Collins
And having an actual debate with myself right now because I can totally so I want to preface this by saying that I do not teach kindergarten and I have not taught kindergarten, although I spent time in kindergarten classes. But my first question I’m asking myself is what is the goal of the math talk in kindergarten? Is it to your point?

00:11:15:22 – 00:11:35:17
Nichole Collins
Right, We’re working on really foundational concepts and skills. It’s not super complex, especially in number sense. So where I was kind of debating this whole time is, is the goal to kind of get in and get out and to establish a routine where they’re building that number sense And is that the time to build in our talk routines?

00:11:35:17 – 00:12:05:21
Nichole Collins
And I’m just I guess I’m not sure like like you said, I don’t know that there’s that much to talk about or debate or think about or question and unless we’re building in maybe some estimation or curiosity. So I guess my question to you and that was really long winded is what do you hope to get out of that math talk time is the purpose to support your culture of learning or is that time really just a routine to solidify those foundational skills for them?

00:12:05:21 – 00:12:40:00
Nichole Collins
And then we can jump into more curious tasks? I think that there’s a balance for me that, yes, we definitely have more of those kind of routine moments. We don’t have a set curriculum in my district. We have kind of a scope and sequence, but we can create the lessons kind of how we need them to be. And through our scope and sequence, we have ideas for math talks, but those ideas are really just showed them that patterns one through three show them patterns one through four, show them that pattern one through five.

00:12:40:02 – 00:13:05:19
Nichole Collins
And that can be, like I said, yes, there is that routine, but that can be very, very boring to some extent that every single day we’re going here’s a picture that’s three, here’s a picture that’s two. And it is slow building throughout the year. Like I said, by the end of the year, we get to ten. And so that’s 180 days until where they get to see all of those things.

00:13:05:19 – 00:13:28:15
Nichole Collins
That’s a long time. So I think we’re trying to figure out how we can balance a little bit those routine skills that we are just kind of getting in and out and practicing. You know, I can identify this quantum t with making it a little bit more intriguing. So we’re not feeling as kind of disengaged right from the jump in math class.

00:13:28:17 – 00:13:50:19
Jon Orr
Now, I’m also thinking about this because I think intentionality, your thought about intentionality is so important in the things that we do and the things that we’re trying and there’s routines that come up and it’s like, okay, there’s that great routine, that great routine, this idea, this idea. And it’s like thinking about we get caught up sometimes I think, and I used to get caught up like that in going, I want to make sure it’s flashy.

00:13:50:19 – 00:14:17:05
Jon Orr
I want to I want to make sure that kids are like coming out here and going home and telling their parents about it and talking about math class and talking about the things that we’re doing. And there’s that that duality that we want engagement. And does engagement always mean deeper learning? Because I think sometimes we’re like, we want this engaged because I spent a long time trying to focus on engagement to get kids hooked into my lessons and in trying to kind of like not make sure it’s boring.

00:14:17:05 – 00:14:38:16
Jon Orr
And I taught high school student so like they get bored real easy and real fast. And whereas your students are probably like itching to do something and ready and they’re all excited to kind of do whatever you ask them to do. And I would focus on engagement primarily and then lose focus about how to make sure students understood and made sense of the work that they’re doing.

00:14:38:16 – 00:15:00:23
Jon Orr
So when you’re thinking about using a particular routine, is it what? And I think asking that question that you bet said is like, what is the purpose of this lesson, this routine, these 10 minutes on the carpet? What is it that we’re hoping to achieve here? And maybe it is hitting a standard or looking at a standard or unpacking our standard.

00:15:01:00 – 00:15:23:19
Jon Orr
Maybe it is a strategy or a relationship, or maybe it is trying to come up with or show students the symbol that represents three, but also the quantity that represents three. And then connecting those two things together because those are different things than recognizing a symbol, quantity, understanding the quantity, then realizing that the symbol that matches it, is it an essential kind of relationship is that kindergartners do need to know.

00:15:23:19 – 00:15:45:10
Jon Orr
And we want that happened. But it’s like, is the intentionality here about the quantity or is the intentionality but the symbol is intentionally linking the two. So partly it’s like, what is that intentionality? And then ask the question about what’s the engagement to get to that and will I be able to achieve the outcome that we’re really after by doing this activity?

00:15:45:10 – 00:16:03:01
Jon Orr
And sometimes you’re like, okay, maybe not. Maybe I need to rethink what structure I’m trying to use here. Should I do more one on one, one on small group, you know, big group carpet lessons in kindergarten, which I know is probably not the ideal because it’s kindergarten and you have like literally 5 minutes when we’re all in the carpet together.

00:16:03:03 – 00:16:08:20
Jon Orr
But that’s my thoughts. Yvette, what do you think about sticking to the intentionality? Anything to add there?

00:16:08:22 – 00:16:33:21
Nichole Collins
I was writing myself some notes here about what does a math talk look like in a kindergarten classroom in kind of that ideal scenario? Like what would I hope to gain from that time? And the first thing I wrote down is I just want to focus on those foundational skills. So I want to really make sure that we’re all having an opportunity to engage in a routine like you mentioned, that’s scaffolded, that’s building on the previous skill.

00:16:33:23 – 00:17:03:11
Nichole Collins
I also envision this space right where you do have routines and students have voice. So rather than it being that single student with their hand up who answers, maybe it’s choral response or it’s whisper response, or it’s pair share or square share. It’s like everybody is answering because one thing I notice in even grade six and seven classes is that sometimes when there’s one person responding, Lucy West famously says, It’s sleepy time for everybody else.

00:17:03:13 – 00:17:21:04
Nichole Collins
So when there’s that one student explaining their answer and it’s a lengthy response, you sometimes lose everybody else in the room. So how can it be engaging for everybody? Or maybe we’re all saying it at the same time? The answer And then I hear my neighbor say something different and I turn to them and ask them about it.

00:17:21:06 – 00:17:42:00
Nichole Collins
So just making sure that it’s not that teacher, student, teacher, student throughout the routine, it’s really everybody is answering all of the time. And then I also wrote brief, like I kind of alluded to that before, like let’s get in and get out. If we’re really intentional with the purpose of that math talk, maybe it doesn’t need to be more than five or 10 minutes.

00:17:42:00 – 00:18:02:01
Nichole Collins
If my intention and goal for that time is super clear and everybody is engaged at all times throughout that 5 minutes, maybe that’s sufficient. And my question to you, Nikole, is when do you see them super engaged and excited about math learning? So if it’s not necessarily during math talk, when else do you see it happening during your math?

00:18:02:01 – 00:18:22:20
Nichole Collins
BLOCK So I will say exactly what you said, right? It feels a lot. That math talk portion feels a lot like teacher shows. Student respect, like one student responds. So it doesn’t feel like a math talk. It feels more like just a quick question and answer period a lot of the time, which is I think, pieces of my struggle with engagement that you’re right.

00:18:22:20 – 00:18:43:10
Nichole Collins
Like they don’t all seem engaged for the most part. Like three of them are engaged, and it’s very easy for the rest of them to kind of just check out really quickly as far as when do we see them engaged. I do think that depends a little bit on the topic that we’re talking about. You know, anything that involves allows them to be more hands on.

00:18:43:12 – 00:19:10:23
Nichole Collins
They’re into their that any time they can touch anything it doesn’t like, it doesn’t have to be anything specific but any time they can touch something and a lot of times honestly anything they time they can touch something that in a meaningful way that they feel like has a story or that they’re working towards something that they feel really engaged and kind of excited about that part because they’re building something even if they don’t fully understand why they’re doing it or what their the purpose is at the moment.

00:19:11:00 – 00:19:33:07
Nichole Collins
They feel really good about that part. So I think again, that’s kind of why in my head on like they need to be yes, I want it to be to feel routine and I want it to be something that they are kind of quick with. But I don’t want it to be three kids that are kind of getting this quick, quote unquote, talk.

00:19:33:09 – 00:20:03:10
Nichole Collins
I want them to feel like they can talk to each other a little bit more, even if they like I said, you know, I have Spanish speakers in my classroom. I have kids that I have students who have special needs. And so finding that common language between them through math talks can be a little bit challenging at times that it is feeling sometimes like it’s, you know, your high flier children who are ready to answer at the ready to be in and be out and move on to the next piece that they want to do.

00:20:03:12 – 00:20:10:03
Nichole Collins
So finding time that they can kind of talk to each other and feel more settled in what they know.

00:20:10:05 – 00:20:18:14
Jon Orr
What do you see as your next move? Like what do you see as a change that you’re going to make after this quick discussion? Very quick discussion about this?

00:20:18:16 – 00:20:42:13
Nichole Collins
It would be good to kind of explore a little bit more and to math partners, maybe like you had said, math like like a pair share kind of a thing, but something that they maybe have like the same person for the whole week that they feel a little bit more comfortable talking to that person or they get used to talking to that person because it’s hard in the beginning of the year, especially that they don’t know everybody, they don’t feel comfortable.

00:20:42:15 – 00:21:05:20
Nichole Collins
So maybe having more of an opportunity where each partner group maybe get something to look at and they talk to each other about it more than like a whole big thing that we’re looking at the board on the carpet more so than even if it is just one picture of three cars or one picture of or apples that they can kind of talk about to each other about what they see or what they notice more.

00:21:05:20 – 00:21:11:06
Nichole Collins
So than just like a whole class time.

00:21:11:08 – 00:21:47:15
Jon Orr
Do you see working like you said, they’re most engaged when they’re holding something, they’re manipulating something and they got hands on. Do you see a, you know, a way to integrate your math talk? You want to do more math talks, but knowing that we need more talking individually. So now you’re kind of going, okay, we’re going to change this component of my math talk to have them talk individually to the same student or sit beside the same student during the week and then swap that, because that’s great for building that culture of the room so that eventually they all talk to each other, but also knowing that they’re most engaged in holding something.

00:21:47:15 – 00:22:05:20
Jon Orr
Do you see a way to blend that into your math talks in, say, the prompt that you’re putting on screen or you’re talking about or holding up, do you see a way to kind of, hey, I’m going to also bring in this, this, this, this handhold or this manipulative idea with it possibly?

00:22:05:22 – 00:22:28:19
Nichole Collins
I think that’s something that we could do that instead of giving each group maybe a picture or something to look at. We said you’re kind of giving them the bucket that has set them out inside of it that they can kind of maneuver. And we’ll kind of look at pick up a little bit more themselves or even build yourself because like you said, you know, sometimes you’re looking at the numerals, sometimes you’re looking at more of the quantity instead.

00:22:28:21 – 00:22:33:12
Nichole Collins
So kind of giving them an opportunity to play with both maybe. And so I think it’s a possibility.

00:22:33:14 – 00:22:44:10
Jon Orr
What’s holding you back when you say like it’s a possibility because, you know, it’s the most engaging, but then it’s like it’s a possibility, which means you’re like, I don’t know if that’s going to work for me.

00:22:44:12 – 00:23:05:23
Nichole Collins
I think more so just the management piece and the constant keeping up sometimes with all of that, you know, when you’re not when you’re doing it for everything all the time, it’s easy to fall back on pictures and or visuals rather than hands on and setting that up because it it it’s time consuming to set all of that up.

00:23:06:00 – 00:23:28:10
Jon Orr
It’s definitely time consuming. And I used to think about this like there’s a ratio that I always kind of lumped this kind of in. There’s no like set rule for me, but I always thought that two is like, okay, there is a set up time, a learning time for me to structure this so that students will get the maximum amount of learning out of this routine or this lesson.

00:23:28:12 – 00:23:50:10
Jon Orr
And it’s like, okay, do I want to do all of this to get this? And what kind of benefit do we get if I do all of this work? Is it going to be a huge benefit for the students or a little benefit? Because it’s like, Oh, I like I only have so much time in a day to balance and maybe I want to spend that chunk of time doing another activity because that’s the huge benefit today, because you’ve got you’re not just teaching math.

00:23:50:10 – 00:24:12:04
Jon Orr
So thinking about that ratio is really important to do. And then what it means though, is it falls back on intentionality. Like what is it that we really want to get out of this and is it worth it to do that amount of prep to get that output? And it doesn’t have to be the same for every day, if you know what I mean.

00:24:12:04 – 00:24:27:23
Jon Orr
Like some days you might be focusing here and some days you focus here, but you put a lot of prep work into that activity because this is such an important concept for students to get in. They have to do that and then make it part of a routine and the classroom management usually becomes easier once that routine is established.

00:24:28:00 – 00:24:39:16
Jon Orr
But that’s what I tend to think about when I go, Hey, I’m something. This is holding me back, which is the amount of class management or prep work that I have to put into place. It’s like, what is that? Tradeoffs.

00:24:39:18 – 00:25:06:15
Nichole Collins
Yeah, it makes me feel better too, that you said like it. It doesn’t have to be the same every day. The intention could be a little bit more towards one thing one day, and then that’s not really the biggest piece the next day because you don’t like, you don’t want things to kind of go by the wayside. And for us, numeracy is super important all the time because you have somebody who you say, show me three and they still don’t know what three is and that is a big issue and it’ll continue to be a big issue.

00:25:06:15 – 00:25:27:06
Nichole Collins
So those pieces need to be a little bit more intentional for us and a little bit more focused on. So I think the attention doesn’t always have to be in that same space every day, but that it can be there from time to time. That does help and it doesn’t need to be an everyday thing, but it can be still an occasional thing.

00:25:27:06 – 00:26:10:01
Nichole Collins
But they get used to the. With that in mind, when you think about this conversation we’ve had today, what would you say your biggest takeaway is? I think my biggest takeaway would be that going into the school year, because Monday we start back up with everything that really looking at what we are hoping to get from them that day, what we’re hoping that they learn and kind of even just focusing on like how much time do we want to dedicate to them understanding this concept, How much time do we want to dedicate to them being able to kind of work hands on or talk to somebody about it and building those structures early on in

00:26:10:01 – 00:26:15:02
Nichole Collins
the year so that it does become natural as we move through the school year?

00:26:15:04 – 00:26:31:08
Jon Orr
I think that’s a great idea to think about that intentionality, think about what is it that we’re trying to do? And I think pairing that with really experimenting with what is has been working with a group because what works with one group is not going to work with another. And what works with one student is not going to work with another.

00:26:31:08 – 00:26:54:18
Jon Orr
And you’d know that from working with young children, young minds, and really I think listening to how they respond and to those structures, those engagements, those interactions that you’re trying to create and listening for that learning response, but also listening for the outcome like the intentionality or trying to help them achieve it, is that, you know, the symbol or the quantity or the relationship between the two, do they have it?

00:26:54:18 – 00:27:22:12
Jon Orr
Do they not like and ready to move on and go like it’s okay that I don’t hear from the student because I checked off that they get that like they got all year to get up to ten and it’s like that student and that student already got that right. And it’s like, What’s that next thing that I can push those students on, but then make sure that I’m hearing in trying to get the assessment that I need from these students in this activity or in this structure or in this particular days, I think that might be a great pairing to say, move forward with to start the school year.

00:27:22:14 – 00:27:35:14
Jon Orr
We want to thank you for joining us here today and we wish you all the best. Would you be open to rejoining us maybe in May is getting closer to the end of the year and letting us know how things are going?

00:27:35:16 – 00:27:46:11
Nichole Collins
Yeah, I would definitely be open to coming back and I thank you so much for having me. It’s been helpful as we kind of enter into a new year to talk through some things that have been weighing on you over the summer.

00:27:46:13 – 00:28:02:06
Jon Orr
Right? Totally got all. It’s like that’s doing time, you know, it’s like, Oh my God, it’s all coming. It’s all coming closer and coming closer. And it’s like, Oh, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? We totally get that. We appreciate that, but we appreciate you for joining us here and wish you all the best coming in the new school year.

00:28:02:08 – 00:28:05:05
Nichole Collins
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

00:28:05:07 – 00:28:41:01
Jon Orr
I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Nicole, myself and Yvette. And when I think back to the tree, the classroom tree that Nicole has, and we all have the classroom tree in parts of the classroom, we’re doing really well. Some parts we can strengthen. We always can grow that tree strong and wide when we think the one particular area of the tree that we touched on here was specifically the branches of the tree, which is our kind of pedagogical moves, our pedagogical content moves, our teaching practices, the things that we’re doing in our classroom, the choices we make about how to structure lessons.

00:28:41:01 – 00:28:59:14
Jon Orr
And I think in this particular episode, we talked about how to think about what kind of questioning we’re asking and how to restructure our lessons. And in particular, this was a kindergarten lesson and a kindergarten teacher. But I think the approaches that we took here can be, you know, in the questions that you want to ask yourself that we discussed here in this episode may be applicable to any grade level.

00:28:59:14 – 00:29:16:16
Jon Orr
But, you know, I want to encourage you to think about your branches of your tree and your pedagogical moves, your making on a regular basis. Does it make sense for you to use math talks on a regular basis? Are you thinking about strengthening the use of math talks or wondering maybe you have some successes in other areas that you want to keep exploring?

00:29:16:18 – 00:29:31:18
Jon Orr
One of the things that I know is that I don’t want to get caught up in going down the rabbit hole of a pedagogical move just to do the pedagogical move. Yes, we want to explore it. Yes, we want to kind of think what the ratio of preparation for that move to use in the classroom and its payoff.

00:29:31:20 – 00:29:50:08
Jon Orr
But sometimes you do have to explore and kind of go down that pathway just to see if it’s useful enough in the way you want to be used. But then sometimes you have to decide that’s not a useful tool here today and not going to use it just because it’s, hey, it’s listed or someone’s saying that or a coach is saying like, you got to use this particular strategy all the time.

00:29:50:08 – 00:30:04:10
Jon Orr
I think we are better than that. You know, we are better at deciding what moves we want to use with our students. It’s going to change. It’s going to be different. That’s the power of the teacher in the classroom is deciding what is the right move and what moves do we put in our pockets to pull out different times.

00:30:04:10 – 00:30:23:21
Jon Orr
Like that’s the real power that we want to strengthen, you know, our teachers with. And if you’re a leader of teachers, it’s about trying to empower them to make those types of decisions and feel confident that they’re making the right decision. If we’re a classroom teacher, you know, they can We want to be able to decide on those moves and have the confidence that we’re progressing down the right pathway with that particular group.

00:30:23:23 – 00:30:41:19
Jon Orr
But the intentionality is there to decide, like this is the move I’m making because of this reason. That’s the type of thinking we want to do as a classroom teacher. So that’s the branches. Those are the questions I ask myself when I’m in the classroom teaching my students and taking some of those pedagogical risks in the moves that we’re making with our students.

00:30:41:21 – 00:31:04:17
Jon Orr
It is the first time you’ve listened to an episode here at Make Math Moments when encourage you to subscribe and get notified. When we publish our episodes on Monday mornings. Monday mornings, the episodes come out every single week. This is episode 299. We’re getting close to 300 folks. Next week, tune in for 300. If you’ve listened before, then we encourage you to hit that rate review button.

00:31:04:17 – 00:31:23:04
Jon Orr
Leave us a rating, Leave us a review. We read each and every one of them. They make our day. They also help other educators find the show. They do so notes and links to all the resources we talked about here can be found out. Make map moments dot com for episode 299. Make map on the screen Port says Episode to 99.

00:31:23:09 – 00:31:27:11
Kyle Pearce
All right their math moment makers until next time I’m.

00:31:27:11 – 00:31:34:13
Jon Orr
Kyle Pierce and I’m John or high fives for us and a high bar for you.

00:31:34:15 – 00:31:45:18
Unknown

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