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Episode Summary:

Ever wondered how consistency and patience in teaching methods can drastically improve student & teacher performance in math?

This episode dives deep into the challenges and triumphs of designing and sticking with consistent math action plans that support teachers with effective math teaching strategies. Whether you’re a teacher aiming to boost your students’ math scores or a math coordinator, coach, or administrator seeking sustainable change, this conversation provides actionable insights that align with your goals.

Resources:

• Episode #252: How Do I Align My K-12 Mathematics Program? – A Math Mentoring Moment
• Episode 223: Strengthening Your Math Team – A Math Mentoring Moment
• Assessment For Growth: A Blueprint Course For Standards Based Grading in Math Class
• Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

Attention District Math Leaders:

How are you ensuring that you support those educators who need a nudge to spark a focus on growing their pedagogical-content knowledge? 

What about opportunities for those who are eager and willing to elevate their practice, but do not have the support? 

Book a call with our District Improvement Program Team to learn how we can not only help you craft, refine and implement your district math learning goals, but also provide all of the professional learning supports your educators need to grow at the speed of their learning. 

Book a short conversation with our team now. 

Episode Summary:

Quick recap

Shawn and Jon discussed the start of the school year, the progress of their respective roles, and the efforts to improve math education in their district. They also explored the implementation of new teaching methods, the importance of mathematical proficiency, and the objectives for their district. Lastly, they emphasized the need for consistency and long-lasting change in improving mathematics education, and celebrated the successes of their students and teachers.

Next steps

• Shawn and team to develop measurable goals and look-fors to assess progress on objective 1 (developing teachers’ conceptual understanding).
• Shawn and team to create a baseline assessment of current teacher practices and understanding.
• Shawn to plan professional development activities focused on building teacher content knowledge across grade spans.
• Shawn and team to determine how to incorporate elements of objective 2 (effective teaching strategies) while maintaining focus on objective 1.
• Shawn to continue implementing and refining the math vision and objectives with consistency over time.

Summary

School Year Start Dates and Test Scores

Shawn and Jon discussed the start of the school year in their respective locations, with Jon mentioning that schools in Ontario typically start after Labor Day. They also discussed the job security and high pay of teachers in Ontario, which contributes to a system where teachers are willing to prepare their classrooms outside of regular school hours. Additionally, Shawn shared that their middle school team’s test scores had significantly improved, surpassing the state average, which was attributed to the team’s focus on problem-first teaching and their commitment to their work. The conversation also touched on their regular check-ins during the summer and a brief family matter that interrupted the discussion.

Math Interventionist’s Role Progress & Changes

Jon and Shawn discussed the progress and changes in Shawn’s role as a math interventionist and department chair at her school. Shawn shared that her team had developed a vision for teaching through conceptual understanding and had been implementing this approach with teachers. They reported an increase in PSSA scores, indicating the success of this approach. Additionally, Shawn’s team focused on supporting special education students, aiming to integrate more of them into regular education classes. They also discussed the implementation of new teaching models and the use of a book called “Rethinking Disabilities in Mathematics” to guide their instruction.

Improving Math Education and Student Performance

Shawn and Jon discussed their efforts to improve math education in their district. Shawn shared that they have been focusing on helping teachers develop a conceptual understanding of math content across grade spans, with the aim of improving student performance. They also discussed the importance of not rushing through math lessons, and the need for professional development for teachers. Jon praised Shawn’s consistent approach and the positive impact it has had on student scores, which have been steadily improving since 2014. They also touched on the challenges they faced in 2014, when scores dropped dramatically, and how they overcame them through a concerted effort.

Problem-Based Learning and Classroom Transformation

Shawn discussed the process of problem-based learning in a sixth-grade classroom, emphasizing the importance of understanding and patience. She noted that it took three years for the teacher to fully grasp the approach. Shawn also highlighted the transformation of textbooks into slides and the consistent communication of the classroom vision since 2018. Jon acknowledged the challenges and commended Shawn’s patience and determination in implementing the changes.

New Teaching Method Boosts Student Performance

Jon and Shawn discussed the challenges and successes of transitioning to a new teaching method using Keynote. Shawn emphasized the importance of not overwhelming teachers with change and the need to respect teachers’ current stages in their careers. They also discussed how the new method improved efficiency and engagement in the classroom. Shawn shared that the new approach led to improved student performance, with middle school performance increasing from 36% to over 50%. They concluded that demonstrating small wins and consistent progress was key to gaining the trust of the administration.

Shawn’s Strategy for Enhancing Teachers’ Mathematical Understanding

Jon asked Shawn about her approach to helping teachers understand mathematical concepts better. Shawn explained that her strategy has been to share her own learning experiences and to work collaboratively with her team to solve problems. She emphasized the importance of building their own understanding first, and then sharing it with others. This approach has been intentional and has involved spending time together to solve problems and discuss mathematical concepts. Shawn also mentioned that she has been more intentional in her teaching methods after listening to Jon and his team.

Mathematical Proficiency and Engaged Students

Shawn and Jon discussed the importance of mathematical proficiency and the need for teachers to have a strong grasp of the subject to effectively teach it. Shawn expressed excitement about the connections between mathematical concepts and the importance of problem-solving. They also discussed the objectives for their district, which Shawn shared with Jon via email. The conversation touched on the concept of an ‘engaged student’, which led to a discussion on teaching through context and visuals.

Improving Math Education Objectives and Strategies

Shawn and Jon discussed the objectives and strategies for improving math education. Shawn’s team had developed two objectives: the first was for teachers to develop a conceptual understanding of content across grade levels, and the second was for teachers to utilize effective strategies to engage students. Shawn emphasized the importance of fostering discussion and ensuring students have a sufficient conceptual understanding before introducing new strategies. They agreed on the need to implement these strategies thoughtfully and consider the necessary prerequisites.

Balancing Individual and Group Learning in Classroom

Jon emphasized the importance of balancing individual and group learning in the classroom, highlighting the need for both vertical and non-permanent surfaces to facilitate student thinking and discussion. He stressed that the main objective should be to foster student thinking, and that non-permanent surfaces, when used intentionally and with a clear structure, can effectively support this goal. Shawn agreed with Jon’s perspective, recognizing the value of using non-permanent surfaces thoughtfully and purposefully in the classroom.

Objective One and Two in Math Sessions

Shawn and JON discuss focusing on objective one, developing teachers’ conceptual understanding across grade levels, during their math sessions. Through modeling strategies and problem-solving, objective two of engaging students will also emerge. JON advises being intentional about the purpose and calling out the strategies being modeled so teachers can replicate them in their classrooms.

Improving Math Education for Teachers

Jon and Shawn discussed strategies to enhance math education for teachers and students. Jon stressed the importance of improving teachers’ understanding of math to inspire their students. They agreed on focusing on teacher training and establishing measurable objectives for the year. Shawn was tasked to identify specific changes she wants to see in teachers’ conceptual understanding and classroom implementation, and to create a focused plan with actionable steps to achieve these goals. They also discussed the need to regularly review progress towards the set objectives, using a district-wide professional development day as an example of a potential action step. Shawn concurred, highlighting the necessity to listen to teachers in this process.

Improving Mathematics Education Through Consistency

Shawn and Jon discussed the importance of consistency and long-lasting change in improving mathematics education. Shawn expressed satisfaction with the current approach, emphasizing the need to stick with it and see the results. Jon agreed, highlighting that maintaining focus on the right direction is crucial for creating sustainable change. Additionally, Shawn shared a success story of a student who, despite being recommended for special education, was doing well in math due to the instruction. Both agreed on the need to celebrate such successes with the teachers.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00:15 – 00:00:30:04
Jon Orr
Ever wondered how consistency and patience in your teaching methods can drastically improve student teacher performance in math? That’s what we’re going to talk about here. We got Shawn Hershey, who has been practicing consistency around what matters in his classroom for a good number of years, and he’s seeing significant growth in his student students and it’s turning into to student test scores.

00:00:39:24 – 00:00:43:12
Kyle Pearce
Welcome to the Making Math Moments that Matter podcast. I’m Kyle Pearce

00:00:43:12 – 00:00:47:03
Jon Orr
And I’m Jon Orr, we are from makemathmoments.com.

00:00:47:05 – 00:00:56:07
Kyle Pearce
This is the only podcast that coaches you through a six step plan to grow your mathematics program whether it’s at the classroom level or at the.

00:00:56:07 – 00:01:12:08
Jon Orr
District level. And we do that by helping you cultivate foster your mathematics program like strong, healthy and balanced SRI. So if you master the six parts of an effective mathematics program, the impact that you are going to have on your teachers, your students will grow and reach far and wide.

00:01:12:10 – 00:01:26:10
Kyle Pearce
Every week you’ll get the insight you need to stop feeling overwhelmed, gain back your confidence and get back to enjoying the planning and facilitating of your mathematics program for the students or the educators that you serve.

00:01:26:12 – 00:01:50:18
Jon Orr
In this episode, we’re going to discover Shawn’s journey. Shawn has been with us for a few episodes. You can hear his story. He’s got two prior episodes. Shawn took our workshop many years ago, and it’s been consistently implementing the practices that he’s learned in that workshop and he’s learned in the Academy and McMath Moments Academy. And just listening to the podcast for a number of years since 2018.

00:01:50:20 – 00:02:11:11
Jon Orr
And you’re going to hear his story here today about what’s paying off and where the improvements he made along the way, but also what results he’s seeing. He’s reporting that all the classes that he’s been implementing these practices in have had significant growth in student test scores. I want you to hear his story. That’s why we’re sharing it here.

00:02:11:13 – 00:02:27:22
Jon Orr
Again, you can listen to his prior episodes in the show notes. Click those links as well. You can hear him begin a few years ago in coming in to where he is today. But let’s hear Shawn’s story. Here we go. Hey there, Shawn. Welcome back to the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. It seems to be a regular occurrence.

00:02:27:22 – 00:02:44:01
Jon Orr
Every summer we check in with you, see how things are going, I think, oh, I haven’t even looked back yet, but I think this is like the third or fourth kind of follow up. We’ve done with you over the years. Third year now, third, third follow up over the years, just to check in to see what’s going on in your classroom.

00:02:44:01 – 00:02:55:15
Jon Orr
I’ve heard, you know, I want to hear about what’s changed. I want to hear about what pebbles you’re kind of working on. But before we get into all that, fill us in. What’s new in your world and just do a quick reminder of where you’re coming from and what your role is.

00:02:55:20 – 00:03:15:02
Shawn Hershey
I’m from Denver, P.A. and my role is actually a math interventionist and the department chair for math at our school and what we’ve been working on. So I used to come on last time you guys said that we need to get a team together and start working on our vision. That kind of came back. So that was kind of the pebble that I had last time.

00:03:15:02 – 00:03:32:01
Shawn Hershey
So we did get together. There was a team of four of us and this summer we’re now there’s like this school year, we’re trying to talk about that vision with the teachers and then like, because it’s a fluid thing and we’re saying, here’s our vision that we kind of came up with here. What do you think about it?

00:03:32:01 – 00:03:45:18
Shawn Hershey
And so we’re working through those pieces, as you guys suggested, but I’m not like the pebble that I have it. We’ll talk after. I’ll give you guys an update what we’ve done. But who I have is like, okay, so now we’ve done this. What do you guys think of it? Where do you think we need to go next?

00:03:45:20 – 00:04:13:11
Shawn Hershey
But what we’ve done this year is we’ve been implementing this stuff over time, but we didn’t have that vision. But we’ve always been working towards teaching through contextual problems, which you guys I like your statement in one of the podcasts which I use now is we want to teach procedural fluency through conceptual understanding, and we’ve been working and solving problems with teachers in our professional development with that and talk about what that looks like, how you do it with their actual problems from their textbook or kind of look at like, why is it ready set up this way and how do you do that?

00:04:13:11 – 00:04:32:01
Shawn Hershey
So we were working with teachers on that and one of the neat parts for this year was when the PSA scores came back for the first time, every grade level third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth actually had their highest score since the Common Core came out, which is 2014. I thought that was kind of neat for everyone to kind of see, okay, this can work.

00:04:32:01 – 00:04:53:02
Shawn Hershey
And we’ve actually increased our scores coming out of the pandemic 2021 and increased them every year since anywhere between five and 8%. So every year it goes up between five and 8%. So we’re hoping that trend continues, which we think it will, but we’re going to just keep working on that as teachers and making sure that we do the right thing for them.

00:04:53:04 – 00:05:11:06
Shawn Hershey
One of the things that we did this year, so keep working towards that is as we shifted our instruction, we actually started looking at like our special ed and we had about 38 to 40 kids in special Ed says about 20 per class. So now we have that. We’ve been trying to like say, okay, which kids really need to be in there?

00:05:11:06 – 00:05:38:04
Shawn Hershey
Which kids don’t? And we’ve been very successful getting those numbers down for the teachers, and those kids have been successful in the regular ED that this year we are implementing that with the special Ed launch for teacher to get about 12 to 13 more kids that will have lots of support each day and trying to really get more and more kids into that mainstream because we know that they can do it, especially if we work on some of our pedagogical moves and work with building that number.

00:05:38:10 – 00:05:40:18
Shawn Hershey
So that’s a lot what we’ve been doing.

00:05:40:20 – 00:06:04:12
Jon Orr
I know that you said that that’s what you’re focused on this year in addition to trying to make sure everyone knows the vision that you’ve been working on, and that was a new addition to this year versus previous years. But would you say you’re having your special education students outside Tier one classrooms experience? Is that been your main focus this year to kind of help those teachers and also those students kind of work their way back in into Tier one instruction?

00:06:04:14 – 00:06:36:19
Shawn Hershey
Yes, that’s actually a really neat so answer. We actually were able to have an in-service this summer and a launch for teacher. Was there. I read Rachel Lambert’s book, Rethinking Disabilities Mathematics, and we really so like, I didn’t have it before, but we now in our PD were bringing that in to talk about how does this fit? Like how if we’re changing our instruction and thinking differently through models, we have a focus of three models, which is the open number line, the area model and the ratio table, because we really want to hone in those because we know they flow K through 12 and we thought if we do those, but like how does that

00:06:36:19 – 00:07:01:23
Shawn Hershey
fit for kids making connections? How does it fit teaching through conceptual teaching and procedural fluency through concepts, understanding, how does that actually help kids? And I think that’s kind of huge. And like one of the things I learned now, it’s like two years later, but I understand it now is like we’re trying to teach teachers if you know, the two types of division and we’re going to do a first initial problem knowing the two types of division, we’re not to help kids with that.

00:07:01:23 – 00:07:17:05
Shawn Hershey
But if we know that we know which model to use and which one to be, then like like I like the idea of starting with quarter division. So you have that unit rate. So you can show like building a fraction. Why does it get bigger and how that works? So I think that’s something that we’re like kind of like talking about now.

00:07:17:07 – 00:07:34:15
Shawn Hershey
Again, that’s just something that we’re just going to constantly build over time. So kind of about that a little bit this summer. And then how do we help those kids that are in there? But that’s going to be like three, three years or so, I think, till we even like get that. But it’s like we’re going to constantly work on that and come back to our like.

00:07:34:17 – 00:07:59:18
Shawn Hershey
So when we wrote our vision or objective one really was teaching teachers what it means that teacher would develop a conceptual understanding of the content across grade spans. So what does that mean? How we develop professional development like that, which is like problems. And we’re doing that through the models. But that piece, if we get that right, I think that is like I entered the in-service this year.

00:07:59:18 – 00:08:19:17
Shawn Hershey
I heard a quote and again, I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but I like ending with it. Were all learners network. There was a quote came out said that you can cut your interventions in half if we don’t rush the traditional subtraction and long division algorithm. That’s the other pieces like getting people not to rush that. I know that’s a big thing with you guys.

00:08:19:17 – 00:08:32:15
Shawn Hershey
It’s not that we don’t do algorithms, we just don’t rush. But it’s easier to really ask why. So we got to start like there. If I don’t rush it, what is the thing that I can do? So that’s kind of where we’re at. Okay. I didn’t know if you think that’s good.

00:08:32:15 – 00:08:55:13
Jon Orr
Like, No, I think you’re focusing on the right things. Kyle and I, you know, we speak with leaders like you in your position every single day and what’s going on in their programs. We help them guide those programs, but we also hear how they’ve structured their programs in the past. And you’re focusing on some really important ideas, right, Like focusing on content, knowledge of teachers, a proficiency for teachers as your objective, number one.

00:08:55:13 – 00:09:17:00
Jon Orr
And, you know, even just having objective number one and your math vision is huge to creating a, you know, a sustain math program. And you’re seeing those results now. You’re seeing determination that you’ve had over years of sticking to what matters and not wavering on the hey, what’s the next thing that’s coming in? Right.

00:09:17:00 – 00:09:18:22
Shawn Hershey
Like you’re and I heard you on that one.

00:09:19:01 – 00:09:34:23
Jon Orr
And this is what I love about kind of checking in with you, is that you’re taking advice, you’re taking suggestions, and then you’re like, Yep, I got to stick to it. I got to stick to it. I got to stick to it. Paints a picture like fast, like rewind. You said you had consistent growth in scores since 2014.

00:09:35:00 – 00:09:59:17
Jon Orr
Rewind back to like Shaun and the District before you started kind of going. You’re seeing the growth because typically what we see is like we start making changes in our classroom, in our district and in the professional development support we provide. But then what happens to I think most leaders and we hear this often, is that they don’t see the results that they feel like they should be seeing right away.

00:09:59:19 – 00:10:20:12
Jon Orr
And the other part that is the pressure on that is you’ve got, say, the next level up or administration going like what are are we seeing these results? Like what? Where are the results? What are we doing to, like, change those roles and what happens? What we hear is that these hard working coaches, these hardworking coordinators and the teachers themselves, it’s like we feel like the shift has to happen.

00:10:20:13 – 00:10:38:22
Jon Orr
Like, well, okay, that didn’t work. Like, what’s next? Like, we got to try something new, something different. But what I’m hearing from you is you’ve been consistent on some important things over the course of the year. So paints a picture like what did it look like in your classrooms and the work that you helped teachers implement before you started to feel like, hey, we’ve got some momentum here?

00:10:39:03 – 00:11:00:15
Shawn Hershey
Well, just to be clear, we were not good at 2014. You said it would be 2021 one. Really? What happened was 2014 happened and our school was actually the principal. I pulled out the email. I sent it to him last year. He’s now assistant to the supervisor. Like you remember this email after the scores came out pretty good and it was said, Please sit or sit down before you read.

00:11:00:15 – 00:11:24:17
Shawn Hershey
And it was 2014 and it was a PSA scores because, you know, before that we’re scoring 90% and then we were down at like 31% visibility building, which is like one of those drastic changes in 2015, 2016 came and we really didn’t move anything. And 2017 was actually the turning point because a parent came to the school board meeting and asked the school board, what are you going to do about your abysmal middle school math scores?

00:11:24:18 – 00:11:37:11
Shawn Hershey
That was the tipping point. So then of course, I didn’t know this. And then also on our systems, the Super and our director of academic supports sat down with me and we had to write a plan. And this is 2018. So that’s when I took your course. I don’t know if you guys remember, you guys were on grassroots.

00:11:37:14 – 00:11:54:14
Shawn Hershey
You even have a Web site point now. And you guys, I’m like, My gosh, I love this. So then 2018, 2019, I started saying, Can I teach for you? So that’s when I first started my intervention role. So I was in the classroom at that point. And literally we were doing big ideas and we were literally doing example.

00:11:54:14 – 00:12:09:14
Shawn Hershey
One example to the example three or four is where you got to the real life took your course. You guys were like, Listen, why don’t you do the problem first? You guys called it like you know, the perfect classroom. But you guys in that video, like you started saying, like, can you do that first? And then Keno came in.

00:12:09:16 – 00:12:31:08
Shawn Hershey
So 2018, 19, we were literally just starting in sixth grade and you guys were like, Make it visual and you had the visual pattern. So I went to the sixth grade teachers and I remember sit there, there’s three of them that point. And I said, okay, what is an expression? So when we started diving into what is an expression, and they were like, Well, let’s just plug numbers in.

00:12:31:08 – 00:12:48:09
Shawn Hershey
Which we realized, oh my gosh, expressions really are the start of a linear equation. So then we start looking at Bone Nugent’s growth patterns and we select the ones we liked so that when we teach that now, we actually teach like what the coefficient means. What does the constant mean? How does that visually look as you’re growing from there?

00:12:48:09 – 00:13:03:03
Shawn Hershey
Then we started working just in there, putting the problem first. I can actually it’s funny, I just talk to someone about this. The other day I was actually with the sixth grade teacher when I suggested this, and he’s kind of rigid, but he’s amazing. And I remember him sitting there and he’s in the middle of the seat and I see his eyes.

00:13:03:03 – 00:13:17:16
Shawn Hershey
He puts the problem out and the kids just start making sense. It was the least common mortal problem, which, you know, in sixth grade is usually sometimes when you start based on fact, these come all one and I’m sorry was grace common factor and you just kind of look around and he’s like I guess they do more than I realized.

00:13:17:18 – 00:13:38:21
Shawn Hershey
It was like, what? I like it when I did the visual problem. Like you guys kind of understand this. And the teacher around, he goes, No, what’s interesting and I say that because best for three years, I’m coming up to the class and the one teacher, just Migos, Hershey, when you first showed me these problems because I kind of got him, I was assured those now I love them.

00:13:38:23 – 00:13:56:21
Shawn Hershey
And I was like, And now they’re like, Do you teach that way better than I do? I’m like, Oh, you know me like, I guess my point to that is give yourself grace, because it takes three years to even to you understand it well. And that’s what I’m finding. And again, people can be different. I’m never like people will tell you, I will always say I’m in for the marathon, not a sprint.

00:13:56:23 – 00:14:11:04
Shawn Hershey
So that’s just coming at you. I know that’s what you guys are like. And for me, that just the other message we put out too is you’re not going to intervene your way out of this. So people, I think they’re going to bring an intervention that’s not going to you’re not going to intervene your way out of it.

00:14:11:04 – 00:14:33:04
Shawn Hershey
You really have to look at what you guys are saying. There’s six parts. So that’s kind of where we were at then. And then I start feeling through the other big piece that I think was huge is as of last year, everyone has transformed their textbooks. We didn’t abandon the textbooks, but we did transform them into keynote or into slides when school G where we’re able to put the problem first.

00:14:33:06 – 00:14:50:06
Shawn Hershey
And we really got on board with that. And I think that’s been huge. And I guess, like you said, we have not changed our message since 2018. I think that is I guess it is like it’s not going away. And then we developed we kind of selected already based on that principle because it has the try it. But now we have to teach the teachers why that and then how we use those.

00:14:50:06 – 00:14:53:21
Shawn Hershey
But that just takes time. But the teachers are so amazing at our school.

00:14:53:23 – 00:15:23:11
Jon Orr
I think the consistency is part of that is I know I said this before, but when we start to switch focuses, this is where teacher you know, I think I was the teacher for 19 years and and when focuses from you know on initiative switched you lose a little bit of like I guess if you feel a little bit of magic die you know in a little bit unless it’s like a focus to be like finally this is where we need to be focused because when we go, hey, we’re we’re going to focus on this as our main priority this year and the next year, it’s something brand new.

00:15:23:13 – 00:15:39:20
Jon Orr
You’re like, it feels like things being added to your plate. You have no choice but to feel like that. Then you start to have a little bit of disillusion. I’m like, Well, what’s next year is going to look like? So like because they switched it from last year. Last year is still important. Should I be working on last year’s focus in Switched?

00:15:39:22 – 00:15:59:10
Jon Orr
It’s too much and this is why I used to say there’s too much being added to our plates. But what you’re doing right, like you’re saying, Hey, from 2018, we’ve had a consistent message about what our classrooms look like. Like I know what you say. You’re putting your vision in place now, but you had your vision back in 2018 and you were communicating.

00:15:59:10 – 00:16:16:01
Jon Orr
It just maybe wasn’t written on paper, but it was probably part of everything that you were doing was like, This is what mathematics looks like now. This is what it used to look like. And then that message, like that constant, here’s what we used to do. Here’s what we do now, here’s what we used to do, here’s what we do now is really important for that change.

00:16:16:01 – 00:16:30:10
Jon Orr
And then you have to be patient and determined that that’s going to work over the three years. And you’ve done that and I commend you for that. Now, I want to ask you two things. I’m going to ask you. The first one, though, is that you said you transform your textbook and you transform the curriculum that you were you were using.

00:16:30:10 – 00:16:51:06
Jon Orr
People get scared of that, right? It’s like, oh, I actually have to toss out my whole resources in textbook and completely change. Tell me a little bit about like, what did you do there? How did you support teachers? When we were transitioning from taking the textbook and not following it day by day, when what the resource or what the curriculum is mapped out for us and then transforming it.

00:16:51:06 – 00:16:55:21
Jon Orr
So it’s a little bit tweaked so that you’re sparking curiosity and in engaging that sense, making.

00:16:55:23 – 00:17:17:02
Shawn Hershey
It’s interesting because it didn’t feel what it was was making the keynotes took time because I always said I’m like, just do one unit. Like I told you, I was never in first grade. I was like, Can you just do one? What I find is if you lower the bar for teachers and make sure they’re not trapped, like if I mandate you’re going to change your whole textbook, you get pushback because quite frankly, that overwhelms me.

00:17:17:04 – 00:17:34:13
Shawn Hershey
What does it matter? This is a 35 year career. I don’t understand that. So for me, I was like one. What’s funny is they get one done. They’re like, next. You know, they had two or three done that year because they loved it. And it wasn’t a hard shift. If you’re in keynote, you’re taking like, we show them, like I show them, Hey, here’s how you take a picture.

00:17:34:19 – 00:17:51:09
Shawn Hershey
And we didn’t like say been the textbook because guess what? They have great procedural problems. They also have sometimes, like you said, they’re sometimes good textbooks. But now that we have keynote, what we found, like in seventh grade, they were like, oh my gosh, I’m more efficient when I put in graphs. I don’t have to draw them on the board or whatever.

00:17:51:09 – 00:18:13:18
Shawn Hershey
Like they’re much more accurate. You can shift graphs. You can also combine together when you want to show the difference between proportional and non proportional. They saw a lot of value in keynote and I was able to show them like the magic moves and stuff like that. And I think for them, while I did a lot of the work for them because like you said, there were sometimes you guys doing animations, you’re like, Whoa, whoa, we hold back on animations because they get overwhelmed as a teacher.

00:18:13:18 – 00:18:30:08
Shawn Hershey
So a lot of times we just did it for them. There was an eighth grade teacher who he was brand new and when back in 20 1819, I was showing him what I was doing. Sixth grade, I remember you looked at he goes, I want to teach like that. And he took it to a whole other level for me, like just thinking through context in eighth grade.

00:18:30:10 – 00:18:45:00
Shawn Hershey
But he and I together kind of we’re we’re like willing to make keynotes for people. So I want to make sure it wasn’t just me. Like I was like, we’re a whole team and they’re just all unbelievable. But to answer your question on that one, some people were just right on board and like here, like he was just a different agent.

00:18:45:00 – 00:18:59:20
Shawn Hershey
If he started teaching, he wasn’t married, didn’t have children. So for him to go home and work on that, that’s the other thing was you always have to respect teachers where they are. That to me is like, why I don’t understand mandates like that? Because teachers, from what I knew, as I said, it’s a come from a good art.

00:18:59:22 – 00:19:10:20
Shawn Hershey
It’s just if you’re going to ask them to make a change, it has to be vetted and it has to be like, like you said, we’re just gonna stick with it because over time you will get better and you’re seeing the energy from them teachers.

00:19:10:22 – 00:19:33:09
Jon Orr
And so sorry that change has to feel like it’s a thing being lifted from their plate. Like what pebble does it pluck from their shoe that makes it feel like that’s worth the change? Maybe it’s engagement, maybe it’s the culture of classrooms changing. Maybe it’s your building better sense making, maybe it’s all of them. And maybe that makes coming to your job nicer, easier, more fun, more exciting, engaging for you as a professional.

00:19:33:12 – 00:19:57:20
Jon Orr
There is that pebble that has to be addressed. Otherwise we don’t. You know, teachers aren’t going to say, take that leap. And I think that’s part of what helps provide for you is that you positioned it probably is like that teachers like I want to teach this way it was addressing a pebble that they needed plucked from from their shoe, which is an important part of bringing any sort of new idea or new change or strategy into place.

00:19:57:22 – 00:20:22:12
Shawn Hershey
One thing I do want to say to and so I just make sure I think what’s important is the message. And again, remember, middle school is a focus because that’s where the parents work. We were really like down we were like 36% this year. We’re actually over 50%. So that’s hard for middle schoolers to move that high. But what I think happened there too, is the team we were really trying to find pieces of data that showed growth.

00:20:22:14 – 00:20:40:09
Shawn Hershey
You know, I mean, like I said, we were really like since we were starting sixth grade, the sixth grade just kept showing better and better data and we kind of focused there so that the administration knew, yes, we’re working towards it, Yes, we’re doing this. And and our administration is amazing. They really do trust us. And we showed every time, like, here’s where we’re trying to change our structure and here’s where we’re moving forward.

00:20:40:11 – 00:20:52:11
Shawn Hershey
So I we make sure, you know, like we hope small wins. We were finding every small when we could make sure that new like we were move in the right direction. I want to be clear on that. It took a while, but now you’re like, now they’re like, oh, my goodness. Like, let’s go for you guys.

00:20:52:13 – 00:21:13:18
Jon Orr
Let’s one right, one more question, and then then we’ll dig into a pebble here with you before you said, you know, your objective number one, like having that objective to say this is one of the focus was on help teaching teachers what conceptual understanding really was. Tell me a little bit about like how you implemented that over the last year or so or what your plan is for this coming year.

00:21:13:20 – 00:21:30:22
Shawn Hershey
So I’ll explain to you how it happened, which I don’t think was always intentional, but I’m so passionate about math that when I would learn something like when 2018, when I was learning stuff from you guys or when I was watching, like when you guys created website and I would watch your videos and webinars were Pam hires, I’d actually come in in the morning.

00:21:30:22 – 00:21:45:10
Shawn Hershey
I’m like, Can I show you something real quick that I learned last night? And one of the very first ones I started out with was ratio tables. I would ask them, like, How do you figure out a percentage for your test? And they would say, You take the number you got correct, divided by the matter it was, and then that would be multiplied by 100.

00:21:45:10 – 00:22:05:08
Shawn Hershey
And I looked at I said, Well, why does that work? That was actually one of the first ones I did. And I think there was always these conversations with, Here’s something I learned. What do you guys think about that? And I didn’t realize what we’re doing is we’re working on it together over those years, but now it’s more intentional of we solve problems together.

00:22:05:10 – 00:22:25:04
Shawn Hershey
So like this summer we spent 3 hours going through and here’s a problem and we actually the elementary person. That was the other thing, too, I will tell you is the team that got together to write Division, the elementary, myself and the high school person. Then we also have a fourth person He’s going to be taking over for me for department chair in a few years when I’m done.

00:22:25:04 – 00:22:46:14
Shawn Hershey
But we sit down and we spend an hour or two each summer together solving problems. Because if you’re asking about how do you exceptional are standing out there, I think for us, we still have to build our own and look across grades. And then once we have our own now, Cheryl, when she’s with teachers or perceived or self, like once we know more and more about it, then we get out and share it with them.

00:22:46:14 – 00:23:06:10
Shawn Hershey
But a lot of it’s done through the building, the models and actually doing the problems with them. So we had them up with the whiteboard. But like the one secondary teacher, the having a doubling of so funny because we talk about why model was important, but we also taught one thing too. I started being more intentional and after listening you guys too is the mathematical practices, but also the five strands of proficiency.

00:23:06:12 – 00:23:23:02
Shawn Hershey
So like what makes a proficient mathematical student? And it came out in that meeting before we started doing this stuff was they have multiple strategies. So I’m like, what does that look like? And then challenging structure of mathematical Practice seven was one I actually didn’t understand back in 2018. I don’t like seven eight, that sounds like the same.

00:23:23:02 – 00:23:40:14
Shawn Hershey
And then also and you guys get into models, you’re like, Oh, now I can challenge the structure. Now I get it. I don’t even know like constant difference. So I just saw I mean, I know I’m put myself out there saying like, yeah, you’re a math, your secondary math teacher. You told I’m like, Dude, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, holy smokes, that works.

00:23:40:14 – 00:23:59:15
Shawn Hershey
And then an idea that there was two types of distraction and like, once you got that, then you’re like, Dude, if we don’t teach in elementary, then our eighth graders are going to struggle with slope and that kind of stuff because that’s actually the distance, not the removal in a sense. If you’re not teaching a straight up, you know, I mean, but like that’s kind of kind of intriguing to me.

00:23:59:15 – 00:24:15:17
Shawn Hershey
So that’s where I kind of just I get really excited when I see all these connections happen and when you can take a the other thing is I like practicing on people in elementary, the upper level mathematics that you have access to it, even if you don’t think you do through a model to build that understanding. So I think it’s just solving problems honestly.

00:24:15:22 – 00:24:20:01
Shawn Hershey
And I know you guys are big on that, so try beating a dead horse. So I’m sorry if I didn’t say so.

00:24:20:01 – 00:24:21:08
Jon Orr
No, but no, it’s really.

00:24:21:08 – 00:24:21:17
Shawn Hershey
All comes.

00:24:21:17 – 00:24:31:05
Jon Orr
Down doing the math, like coming down to doing the math with teachers, doing the math with themselves and having space to do that. That’s what kind of makes a big difference for being comfortable to do in the classroom.

00:24:31:05 – 00:24:45:10
Shawn Hershey
Let’s go to say that’s actually one of the biggest problems, is make sure the four of us are so comfortable that we don’t even care if we make a mistake. They can. Problem was, we’re doing one complication problem and I solved it using the vision just kind of I’m like, Oh yeah, But I didn’t feel embarrassed. I’m like, Oh, you right.

00:24:45:10 – 00:24:53:08
Shawn Hershey
I read that one wrong. Let’s let’s do this. And what does that matter? I don’t understand why we have to be the gatekeepers of that, but okay.

00:24:53:10 – 00:24:55:05
Jon Orr
All right. What’s on your mind lately? Like.

00:24:55:07 – 00:25:04:01
Shawn Hershey
I sent you our objectives, and I wanted you to kind of look over it and say, What do you think would be the best next move for our district?

00:25:04:03 – 00:25:10:19
Jon Orr
Okay, lay it on us so that all the people listening here, the listener right now also kind of gets a sense of what those objectives are for.

00:25:10:21 – 00:25:18:23
Shawn Hershey
And these are fluid. I mean, we’re only putting these out so these could change. But I mean, this is kind of where we’re at now. Do I share my screen as I send it to you in an email? But yeah.

00:25:18:24 – 00:25:20:15
Jon Orr
No, I have the email. Yeah, you can share your screen.

00:25:20:15 – 00:25:42:16
Shawn Hershey
Oh, okay. This is kind of what we had right there. And we only got two. But what happened was just so when we were doing this, it was funny because they said, Well, we want to engage students. And I looked at I said, Can you define what an engaged student looks like? That was almost our conversation because you can’t really move forward till you talk about what engagement looks like.

00:25:42:18 – 00:26:01:17
Shawn Hershey
And then it came out to like a lot of talking and a lot of being a problem solver. And I’m like, Well, how do we do that? And that’s when it came through, like teaching through contexts and visuals. So it was objective to I know we only got two done, but I mean, like after like three or 4 hours, that’s kind of where we’re at and we’re like, I kind of like this.

00:26:01:23 – 00:26:02:15
Shawn Hershey
Yeah.

00:26:02:17 – 00:26:32:07
Jon Orr
I’m going to read about it out here. So. So no, And just to fill you in, if you’re listening in on us, which you are, is Shawn’s done some work to create a math vision and think about, like, overarching going. This is where we want our math students. You know what it looks like in math class, what this vision looks like, and this is following our program, is thinking about what are the objectives that we want to work towards, which is what are the changes that have to happen so that we can achieve the vision or get closer to the vision, even though the vision is is usually an almost like an unattainable kind of

00:26:32:07 – 00:26:57:04
Jon Orr
lofty thing. But we need to work towards it. But the objectives are kind of like what has to change now so that we can get closer to that? And then they act as kind of your focus zones or goals that you’re working towards throughout the year or next three years, typically or four years, or it could be forever and you could always be working towards these objectives because they’re probably you’re never also going to achieve the objective, but it’s a target you’re working towards.

00:26:57:06 – 00:27:18:23
Jon Orr
So Shawn and his team has written objective number one, which is teachers will develop a conceptual understanding of content across grade spans. And then objective number two is teachers will utilize effective strategies to engage students. All right, Shawn, which one you want to unpack? First, give us a snapshot of your thinking around maybe whatever one you want to begin with.

00:27:19:00 – 00:27:50:07
Shawn Hershey
So objective to teach you to utilize effective strategies to engage students so well, we kind of do say, okay, here are the big things we want to get in. But I will say this after listening several times to your podcast couple and we listen to especially the one on like what matters most, the four four stages we had on there, like we were talking about vertical non perma surfaces and I’m very big on them, but I also realize that’s not right at the moment for each teacher.

00:27:50:09 – 00:28:13:14
Shawn Hershey
So your question was like, you can have vertical one on prem surfaces, but what’s the real goal? The real goal is get discussion going. Now, do I think that’s a better pedagogical move as far as looking around? Yeah, but we kind of change to utilize vertical, not per surfaces when appropriate. I’m not into the everyday and I know you guys aren’t either because you said like I think we were all there question answer one time and you’re like, we’re giving you permission to not do that these days.

00:28:13:14 – 00:28:30:00
Shawn Hershey
Like, you know, we like because it does come down to you have to have the right question. We found you also sometimes have to have the right students, like sometimes that regardless and some people say, well, it’s in your expectation, but I’m like, I don’t know, man. Sometimes there’s just that. There’s a difficult class sometimes and that happens.

00:28:30:00 – 00:28:51:23
Shawn Hershey
So I think for that we want to make sure we I said to the team this summer when we met as like I think what we’re really saying there is we want more discussion, which could be a think pair share, pair share, square share wherever you want to go with that. But that’s really what it comes down to, I think is what we’re trying to get there.

00:28:51:23 – 00:29:07:10
Shawn Hershey
I know those offer other pieces, especially with closure, but I think with that we got to be careful on that one because you don’t want to unleash it when people don’t have enough concept understanding because like you said, they’ll say, Oh, that didn’t work. We’re I think we’re trying to it, so we’re trying to keep that in mind.

00:29:07:12 – 00:29:08:11
Shawn Hershey
I think that support.

00:29:08:13 – 00:29:26:16
Jon Orr
For sure and you’re right, you’re right. You’re kind of like, oh, let’s make sure it makes sense. And do we have the prerequisite kind of background we need to implement it? Well, right. Because the other thing to consider about, say, every day group work at the wall is and you said this about your students, but maybe not just like, is it a class thing?

00:29:26:16 – 00:29:46:24
Jon Orr
It’s like individual students have different needs at different times in going like I always liked to build in that there are components of your lesson that are at yeah, at the vertical nonpermanent surface. And there are components of that same lesson that are individual because you’ve got students that do need their individual think time, but you got students that are you do want them to communicate those ideas.

00:29:46:24 – 00:30:09:16
Jon Orr
You’ve got students who are excel say for me like we’ve talked about this in a previous webinar about kind of the two sides of our brain where we have our quick side of our brain and our slow side of our brain. And some of us, if I’m more introverted, I tend to lean on the slow side of my brain, which basically means like I need processing time to formulate thoughts and ideas so that I can communicate those well.

00:30:09:18 – 00:30:26:13
Jon Orr
And sometimes we need that time. We need that kind of like I need to reflect here myself and making sure that we have time scheduled for that is is really important. And then blankets thing like this one technique is going to work for everyone all the time. It’s the same as saying we’re going to sit at our desks all the time and take notes.

00:30:26:13 – 00:30:55:22
Jon Orr
It’s can’t be an all or nothing. It’s got to be a balance towards what students you have and adapting to the needs of the individual students that are there. So I like to plan a little bit of this and a little bit of that as part of it. But going back to you, thinking about your main purpose is you’re right, it might be the real purpose, might be that you want more discussion, but probably and this is why Peter went down the rabbit hole of researching and getting data on nonpermanent services vertical non permanent services, because he really wanted thinking.

00:30:55:24 – 00:31:11:18
Jon Orr
We want the students to be doing more of the thinking and then you doing the thinking right. And it’s not necessarily about discussion. Now discussion is part of communicating your thinking, but in order for you to discuss, you’ve got to do that thinking. So like the real heart and this is why it’s called building thing in classrooms, right?

00:31:11:18 – 00:31:36:01
Jon Orr
Is we really want students to be doing thinking here in this technique is a way and that can get that thinking quickly, that get that thinking more or standing up or starting to work and starting to think quicker because it was nonpermanent. We’re starting to work. We’re starting to get our thinking done quicker because it was vertical. So the thinking is, I think, the real goal there and I think that’s a really important part of of your objective.

00:31:36:01 – 00:32:06:18
Jon Orr
But the other thing is true is to goal. I would argue that if you’re using non permanent services and you say haven’t delve into the five practices for orchestrating productive mathematical discussions, that which can give you a nice framework and structure to engaging students and keeping that thinking going at the walls. Right because that gives you like that selecting the sequencing, the consolidation, the connection, that nice structure can make that building thing in classrooms, tool or technique really come alive, right?

00:32:06:18 – 00:32:30:11
Jon Orr
So the two things married together, in my opinion, do you need to be at the vertical services in order for you to use it by practice? No. Do they marry nicely? They definitely do. But just like you said, the warning here is like if we’re just going up to the wall and we don’t have a purpose and intentionality of what we’re doing, which is more thinking and then a structure on how to keep that thinking going, then it might not be the best tool.

00:32:30:13 – 00:32:58:05
Shawn Hershey
I guess when I was looking at that too, is I don’t know if that’s the push we want to make now. I really think Objective one is going to be our focus, but I feel like objective two, when we’re solving problems in the building thinking classroom style kind of comes out, or am I wrong? They’re like, I feel like when we’re together, we’re working like at the vertical, like we’re teaching that expansion across grade levels with like very strategic problems.

00:32:58:05 – 00:33:11:10
Shawn Hershey
I know like, like we structure it very quickly, but like the models come out and we’re trying to say, okay, which one would we will we call them first? I feel like when we do problems together, we’re kind of working on these two objectives. Even though I’m.

00:33:11:10 – 00:33:49:03
Jon Orr
Only you are, you can be because what you’re doing is right. Like as long as is your intentional about it. There’s two intentionality here, right? Like, is your intentional about like, okay, we’re going to focus on conceptual understanding across grade level spans, which is objective number one. And I’m going to demonstrate that and we’re going to do problems together in the structure I’m going to do is about using making sure that I use strategies and models and I’m going to model that what that looks like in the classroom so that some teachers get a sense of what they could be doing in the classroom if they want to replicate what happened in their experience.

00:33:49:03 – 00:34:09:03
Jon Orr
Right? So which is a good use of effective professional development time is to do two things at once, is just give them the experience that you need them to have and then they can replicate that with their students. So doing it in that way can be really important. Now I think where you want to focus when you’re doing that is help teachers realize that the intentionality is important.

00:34:09:03 – 00:34:26:18
Jon Orr
Like what is it that we’re really doing here? Call it out and say the intentionality here is about making use of effective strategies so that your students do this, this and this. And the structure here we did that with was we had you up at the walls to help get that thinking out quicker and keep students engaged longer.

00:34:26:20 – 00:34:37:09
Jon Orr
But the real purpose here is to work with these models and strategies. And hopefully the real purpose for you here was that you feel more comfortable using these models and strategies.

00:34:37:11 – 00:34:58:02
Shawn Hershey
It is not wrong because there is really no right or wrong, but it’s not wrong to say we’re really going to focus on objective one and we’re going to make sure we show these teachers like these models how they expand and what it looks like, what didn’t look like in third, fourth, fifth, sixth grade. And we’re building more vacation.

00:34:58:08 – 00:35:19:14
Shawn Hershey
The say how does subtraction and then additive reasoning move into more collective reasoning? And how do we move those kids really focusing on objective one. But I feel like objective two comes out at the same time. Should I take it back to objective one or you say an objective one’s two. Is it too broad? I was kind of vague on my question.

00:35:19:16 – 00:35:22:11
Jon Orr
Well, what are you concerned about? Like, what’s the real problem?

00:35:22:13 – 00:35:41:04
Shawn Hershey
I don’t think there’s a real problem there. I just want to make sure it’s like you don’t think I’m doing too much. That’s okay. Let me ask this. Do you think I’m doing too much by folks by focusing on objective one, but putting in some elements of objective two in there? Do you think that’s two? Yeah. Good. I feel like I can’t build the second one without doing objective two.

00:35:41:06 – 00:36:03:10
Jon Orr
I think they’re married because you’re like, What I was saying was, when you think about the experience you’re giving teachers, if you’re focusing on I will this year, help teachers develop their own conceptual understanding across grade spans. Okay, I’m that’s my goal. My goal is to do that. But I’m also going to do that so that the teachers have those strategies so that they can use them in the classroom.

00:36:03:12 – 00:36:15:17
Jon Orr
And that really kind of falls into objective two ways that they’ll use those strategies to engage students, right? So it’s kind of like you could say my goal is really one, but the trickle down effect is going to happen.

00:36:15:17 – 00:36:15:23
Shawn Hershey
Okay.

00:36:16:03 – 00:36:31:10
Jon Orr
Right. It’s going to happen if I focus on all the things in objective one, which as long as I model what hope to see in the classroom, but maybe just say, we’re just going to do math, we’re going to do math, we’re going to do math, it will trickle down into the classroom because you’re what you’re going to be doing, right?

00:36:31:10 – 00:36:45:03
Jon Orr
In objective one, You’re going to create math, epiphanies. And those math epiphanies teachers are going to be like, oh, my gosh, I didn’t know that we could do it that way. Or that was amazing. Like the two, I didn’t know there was two types of vision. Like, Well, that’s a math epiphany. A person right now listening is going, I didn’t know that.

00:36:45:03 – 00:37:03:11
Jon Orr
Now I need to go down that rabbit hole. And when you create a math epiphany for a teacher, it always sparks the pedagogical move Change. Well, what am I going to do to help bring that math epiphany out? Because I want students to have math epiphanies. So that’s the trickle down effect that naturally is going to happen if you focus on helping teachers understand the math.

00:37:03:13 – 00:37:23:17
Shawn Hershey
Okay, so what do you think our next step is? No, we have a our plan for this year is the next step to get back and look at these two C number one, like be looking at our data, which is the I ready, the cadence, the kind of stuff that we wanted, was it effective? And then we just stick with these.

00:37:23:19 – 00:37:39:00
Jon Orr
That’s the message we started with. I think you know what your next step is, right? Your next step is like this. That’s the focus is keep going on making sure that that gets carried out. What you want to do is at the end of the year to go, okay, what do I want to be able to show at the end of the year?

00:37:39:06 – 00:37:56:20
Jon Orr
If I move the needle on objective number one, because you don’t like what typically happens as we wait for student results to happen, right? So we like wait for standardized tests to see if, hey, did that work? And it’s working for you because you were patient, determined all these years. So you want to keep being patient, keep being determined on what matters.

00:37:56:22 – 00:38:21:21
Jon Orr
And then what you could do, though, as well is go, okay, will that turn into student results? You’re seeing that now. But sometimes when you make a change, you’re like, that’s going to be years before we see that change, why you’re seeing it now. But if you want to see the impact of what you’re doing this year, you can then create your own measurable to say like, Well, what would it look like if we did this well and we saw change this year, which means you kind of have to create like what is the baseline look like this year?

00:38:22:02 – 00:38:39:15
Jon Orr
What is the output at the end of the year look like? What are we going to do in the middle to make it happen? So like, I think your next plan is if you want to measure the change that you created this year in teachers conceptual understanding is develop like what is the look force that you want to see teachers be implementing in their classrooms?

00:38:39:17 – 00:38:59:11
Jon Orr
And maybe it’s their confidence about using these models. Maybe it’s like a walk through to kind of like is a non invalid walk through. But you’re seeing more models happening in lessons and then you’re doing a baseline now and then you’re doing the follow up later to go, Did we make a change this year here on this particular objective?

00:38:59:13 – 00:39:18:14
Jon Orr
And then the, you know, your next step after that is to go, well, what are we prepared to do and what can we commit to this year to making that change? And, you know, you’ve got some bullet points here, which are your steps to go, okay, we’re gonna do this, we’re gonna do this, we’re going to do this, which is the action items, which are the things you want to do this year.

00:39:18:16 – 00:39:32:03
Jon Orr
But each action item has to be like, Will that cause a change the way I want it to cause a change? Will that cause a change? Will that cause a change? So what you’re doing is just making up a very focused plan to make sure that you get closer to your objective. Does that make sense?

00:39:32:05 – 00:39:33:22
Shawn Hershey
Yep. Kind of recap will.

00:39:33:24 – 00:39:34:13
Jon Orr
Definitely.

00:39:34:18 – 00:39:52:01
Shawn Hershey
Be questions. So as we get together as a team, three questions we ask ourselves are what do they look for in a classroom if we don’t really get into classrooms? I don’t. There’s not really the structure we have in my school. But but if we didn’t, So then the question is, do we make a change? That’s some of the answer the end of the year.

00:39:52:01 – 00:39:57:07
Shawn Hershey
And will that cause if we’re going to make this move, will a college a change?

00:39:57:09 – 00:40:15:00
Jon Orr
It’s like, well, will we change it? How will we know we changed? So you could say, I’m going to wait for certain results, but then it’s not as trustworthy because there’s so much cloudiness there. But you could say, I would like to see this change and we just have to decide on how we would know that things have changed over the course of the year.

00:40:15:04 – 00:40:34:23
Jon Orr
In that way. And so you answer that. And then what it does is, is it really puts a target on the change you want to make. And then because you’re writing it down as a goal, like a measurable goal, just the fact that you’re measuring it will cause the change because you’re focused on it. And it’s like, Oh, I write, I’ve written this down.

00:40:34:23 – 00:40:47:14
Jon Orr
This is a thing that we need to look at by the end of the year. Like, What am I doing today to make that goal happen? What am I doing tomorrow to make that called happen? What am I doing the next day? What are we doing next month? Like, Oh, we got a district wide PD day coming. What are we doing on that day to make the goal happen?

00:40:47:16 – 00:40:51:04
Jon Orr
It becomes the filter. It becomes your compass for making decisions going forward.

00:40:51:09 – 00:41:07:14
Shawn Hershey
Yeah. And we also listen a lot to the teachers to kind of figure out like, Yeah, I know what you’re saying. That fits right here, you know? I mean, like, that’s right. I think that because like you say, you want to address their pebbles. That’s true, too. Okay, You got it for that. That’s that is kind of like, what does that next?

00:41:07:14 – 00:41:12:09
Shawn Hershey
Like, okay, we’re here. What’s that? What would that. Yeah, that would be the vice channel.

00:41:12:09 – 00:41:17:08
Jon Orr
What would you say? Like, what did you say? That’s your big takeaway or what would be the big takeaway from today?

00:41:17:10 – 00:41:37:08
Shawn Hershey
I think the big takeaway today, which made me feel good, is you’re like there’s no change made like a big review because of like, I’m like you. I’m like in my head, I’m always like, do a kid. Just keep doing next thing, next thing, next thing. It’s like, okay, let’s let’s keep this because I feel like just getting teachers to see, like the try it and see the problem first.

00:41:37:08 – 00:41:43:12
Shawn Hershey
Like they see it. Like once they get them there to understand the why is very valid.

00:41:43:14 – 00:42:03:16
Jon Orr
Yeah So that’s a great takeaway because in this takeaway being like, stick with it, just be consistent is the important part. As long as right, as long as you’re pointed in the right direction, because you could be sticking with things that don’t that aren’t really effective, but you’re sticking with things that are and will be effective because you’re creating long lasting change.

00:42:03:16 – 00:42:23:14
Jon Orr
You’re creating, you know, capacity. And your educators like these are the things that will cause long change and sustainable change around improvement around mathematics. If you’re focused on something different, then we might say, Hey, this is not something you need to flip flop or you need to change focus here, but your focus is pointing the right way. You just now just write it.

00:42:23:16 – 00:42:30:16
Jon Orr
There’s no need to change anything going forward because you’re pointed in the right direction to start, which is great.

00:42:30:18 – 00:42:47:14
Shawn Hershey
Thank you. I guess that’s really I want to make sure that’s what we’re getting. I just want that to be awesome. I can calculate it. I know it can be like I have up there. I put up the vision. Mike, I need you guys before we put this up, this dream a little bit with us. A dream about what a kid could look.

00:42:47:16 – 00:43:05:16
Jon Orr
Remember? Yeah. And remember, like you’ve been working on building this content knowledge with teachers for years, and it’s showing in your results now, right? Like showing in your results. And it’s like, let’s keep going. Let’s just keep going because you want that. You said 5 to 8% every year. It’s getting better. Like let’s keep that focus going and stay on track.

00:43:05:18 – 00:43:11:03
Jon Orr
Hey, let’s do this again. Let’s do this again next year. Okay. We got we got to check in. We got to check in to see how things are.

00:43:11:05 – 00:43:13:05
Shawn Hershey
Going next year. You guys open to that?

00:43:13:05 – 00:43:14:24
Jon Orr
You hope You open to that?

00:43:15:01 – 00:43:20:19
Shawn Hershey
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. You know, I can always use your help. Awesome. But we can always use your help. Awesome.

00:43:20:22 – 00:43:55:06
Jon Orr
Sean, thanks so much for being here on the Make Math More Matter podcast. We’ll check in with you and I hope you have a great rest of your day. All right. I hope you enjoyed that transformational episode from Sean Hershey. And, you know, as I said in the introduction that Sean has been listening to the podcast, he’s applied the techniques he learned from Kyle and I a number throughout his years, seeing significant change in into student test scores when he’s been aligning his practice across his school and making sure that the teachers that he’s working with are sharing best practices and working together and creating those visions.

00:43:55:06 – 00:44:15:19
Jon Orr
He’s had this great transformational change in focusing on really what matters. And I think what you heard here today is that he’s been had a consistent effort. So when you think about the six components of your tree, he’s got that trunk dialed in the leadership, the vision setting, the goals, what are we working on and getting and get very clear to the teachers that, you know, he’s working with on a regular basis.

00:44:15:21 – 00:44:34:12
Jon Orr
They’ve dialed in the roots of the tree. They strengthen those roots about like making sure we have that pedagogy for those content knowledge to be able to make the branches strong, the branches which are the moves that we make in our classroom, they can’t be strong without strong roots. You have to be working on our content knowledge so that we can have those roots be strong.

00:44:34:14 – 00:44:53:20
Jon Orr
He’s talked so much about mindset over the years and consistently focused the mindset that he can help his teachers with and the students with so that they can have this change in the classroom. You know, the limbs. Thinking about what PD supports are needed inside of his program and what is what he needs as a classroom, an interventionist teacher, but also a coach.

00:44:53:22 – 00:45:09:15
Jon Orr
Those are parts that have to be strengthened as well. We have to think about those know the leaves, what are the resources, what Are the things that we use in our classroom that makes makes it easy for all these other pieces to kind of come together. John’s done some great work and again, I’ll just stress it’s consistent effort that that will pay off.

00:45:09:15 – 00:45:34:15
Jon Orr
And it’s not the flip flopping or the spaghetti at the wall approach. It’s it’s consistently focusing on the six components and consistently focusing effective practice in the classroom and not wavering. That’s where he’s seeing his change over the years and he’s seeing it now. But it’s because of that consistency. And I’m going to courage you to stay consistent, stay true to the things that you know matter in your classroom and don’t waver.

00:45:34:15 – 00:45:52:24
Jon Orr
You will also have that growth. You’re going to see those results come forward. I’m sure that you’ve seen results in your classroom and you could also share those. If that’s you, you want to share your story, head on over, make that moment dot com for such mentor. That’s where Sean, you know, first reached out to us to talk about his journey.

00:45:53:01 – 00:46:06:16
Jon Orr
We can chat about your story and maybe pluck a pebble or two from your shoe. Let’s make it a little bit easier, just as we did with Sean over the years. So head on over to McMath moments dot com for us mentor and hit that button here and maybe we’ll chat with you very very soon.

00:46:06:18 – 00:46:11:02
Kyle Pearce
All right their math moment makers until next time I’m Kyle.

00:46:11:02 – 00:46:12:20
Jon Orr
Pierce and I’m John or.

00:46:12:21 – 00:46:15:07
Kyle Pearce
High fives for us.

00:46:15:09 – 00:46:15:23
Shawn Hershey
And a.

00:46:15:23 – 00:46:18:24
Jon Orr
High bar for you. Oh.

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