Patrick Kosal: Sometimes teachers are stuck in one way, they think, “Well, this is the way you teach ratios, for instance, in seventh grade.” You show them different strategies, you show them a double number line, you show them a ratio table, you show them different ways to draw and model. They think, “Oh that’s really neat.” Then you go back to their classroom and they’re still doing the butterfly method; cross multiplying, things like that. You’re thinking, “Wow, I look at these strategies and I’m thinking, ‘This is how kids would learn best. Kids would really grab on to this.”

Kyle Pearce: You’re listening to Patrick Kosal in this math mentoring moment episode. Patrick, a math coach from Mooresville, North Carolina, is struggling to spark that desire to learn and push teaching practice forward with some of the teachers that he’s working with in his coaching role.

Jon Orr: Stick with us as we learn how working with teachers is similar to working with students and how it’s not. How we can spark a love of learning in teachers we work with. We are going to learn easy strategies to help resist the teachers change in effective but comfortable old school practices. And how can we help teachers address that age old issue of, “We don’t have enough time.”

Kyle Pearce: Let’s hit it. Welcome to the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. I’m Kyle Pearce from TapIntoTeenMinds.com

Jon Orr: I’m Jon Orr from MrOrr-IsAGeek.com. We are two math teachers who together-

Kyle Pearce: With you, the community of educators worldwide, who want to build and deliver math lessons that spark engagement, fuel learning, and ignite teacher action. Welcome everybody to episode number 60. How to coach teachers for effective change; a math mentoring moment.

Jon Orr: Let’s get ready for another jam packed episode. But first, we’d like to say thank you to all of you, math moment makers, from around the globe who have taken the time to share feedback by leaving us a review on Apple podcasts.

Kyle Pearce: This week, we want to highlight Rose F. T. who gave us a five star rating and review that said, “Inspiring. It’s so amazing to hear from so many different people with different experiences. I can’t wait for the online workshop. Counting down the days. Thank you both for doing this great work.”

Jon Orr: We can’t thank Rose F. T. enough for taking the time out of her day to not only listen, but to help us increase our number of ratings to over 150 around the globe, and over 60 reviews.

Kyle Pearce: If you haven’t taken a moment to go and give us an honest rating and review on Apple podcasts, we would surely appreciate it.

Jon Orr: All right. Now, before we get to our discussion with Patrick, we want to let you know that if you’re listening to this before January 31st, 2020, then you’re cutting it pretty close to joining us for our 12-week full online workshop.

Kyle Pearce: That’s right. Our online workshop is designed to walk you through step by step, to help you teach through real world problems and create those resilient problem solvers that you’re after.

Jon Orr: If you’re interested in learning more about registering, be sure to check out makemathmoments.com/onlineworkshop. If you’re listening after the spring 2020 registration closes, you can still hit to makemathmoments.com/onlineworkshop, to join the waiting list, or in order to get notified for your next opportunity to participate, which would then be in the fall of 2020.

Kyle Pearce: That’s makemathmoments.com/onlineworkshop.

Jon Orr: If you’re interested in learning more about registering, be sure to check out, makemathmoments.com/online workshop.

Kyle Pearce: Again, makemathmoments.com/online workshop. All right, my friends, let’s jump into this awesome conversation with Patrick. Hey there, Patrick. Thanks for joining us here on the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. How are you doing this evening?

Patrick Kosal: I am doing great guys and thrilled to be here. Happy and warm in North Carolina.

Jon Orr: Yes. The weather is changing. At the time of this recording, it is the start of fall. It’s October actually, but I think we won’t be hearing this until January. But the weather is changing and fall is my favorite. I’m not sure about you, Patrick, but is the absolute favorite here in Canada. For me, anyway. Could you do us a favor and tell us a little about yourself, where are you coming from, how long have you been teaching, what’s your teaching journey? Give us a little backstory on you please.

Patrick Kosal: Absolutely. This is actually a little awkward because it’s hard to talk about yourself, but I’ll do my best. I grew up in mid-Michigan, right by you guys in Windsor. Moved to North Carolina, I think 2006. I’ve been teaching since I got out of college in 2004, so let’s see, this is my 16th year in education. I taught high school math the whole time. I started wanting to be a teacher, honestly, just because I had a wonderful experience in high school. I had a typical suburban experience, very middle-class and I guess “normal.”

Patrick Kosal: But the teachers I had in high school, especially in the math realm, were just really inspiring. I remember one teacher, Mr. Ramsire, who was my 11th grade trig precalc teacher. He would play dumb all the time. He would say, “Oh, I don’t know what I’m doing here guys. I guess we’ve got to figure this out together.” Really spark in us to be creative and find strategies with our partners and our table mates, things like that. That was the first time, I think I really experienced what math class should be.

Patrick Kosal: I think Jon’s talked about being the “just good at school kid.” I was just good at school, honestly going through in and good at procedures. That’s how I got to know math class until I hit that 11th grade trig, and I had a teacher who really inspired me.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah, that’s fantastic. I’m just thinking to myself that you’ve highlighted, I think one of your … I’m going to call that probably a memorable moment for you. I’m curious, can we continue diving in a little bit deeper, actually, hearing your story? Jon and I are sitting here. I’m sure Jon’s feeling the same way. You started teaching around 2004. I think that was around when Jon started. I started in 2006. We’re all in that same stage, I suppose, along our teaching journey here. I’m wondering a little bit more about your role. I’m assuming you went into the classroom. Can you tell us a little bit more of that and now where you are today, your current role?

Patrick Kosal: Absolutely. I started, like you said, in the classroom. I taught a couple of years in Michigan, a lot of Algebra 2, Algebra 1. When I moved to North Carolina in 2006, I was teaching Algebra 2, advanced functions and modeling, a little bit of pre-algebra. I taught those classes until I got a chance to teach AP calculus. That was in, I think 2010. I taught AP calculus for eight years. I’ll tell you guys, that’s the chance where a math teacher can really take a big wide bird’s eye view of what’s going on in the math curriculum at the school.

Patrick Kosal: Because you see all of the, I guess, flaws and gaps in kids learning or spaces where they just learned a concept for a test and then they did a brain dump. Because they get to you in AP calculus and they got to synthesize everything. It really require kids to understand trigonometry and translations, and logarithms. Those are some things when the kids walk in the door, day one of AP calc and they think, “Oh wait, I had to know that. I thought I just had to memorize it for the test.”

Kyle Pearce: I thought I was done.

Patrick Kosal: Exactly. That’s the struggle when you teach AP calculus, because you see that they have such a lack of confidence in their understanding of the mathematics. It’s really just the skills and procedures they want to get through for the exam. I think that’s what math is, “Just solve this one problem. Cool, unto the next one.” An AP calculus, man, you got to synthesize it and you’ve got to really understand the whole entirety of mathematics and build on that. I had some great experience to teach AP calc at my high school. That was, let’s see, I want to say 2016, I started thinking about halfway through my career, “I want to get some options.”

Patrick Kosal: I wasn’t sure I wanted to stay in a classroom full time, so I went back to grad school, and I got a degree in curriculum and instruction. After I finished that degree in two years, I said, “Well, let’s use it.” I was lucky enough to get a math coaching job in my district. Now, I am one of the secondary math coaches, grade 6-12 in my district, and I work at high schools and middle schools. I have three schools, work with 20 different teachers to support them and to help the kids that they have learned math in the best way possible.

Patrick Kosal: Support the teachers to try new strategies. I run some PD, I help them with PLCs. I can co-teach or plan with them. Really it’s about helping the teachers to grow and to learn, and to reflect on what they’re doing in the classroom to benefit the kids. That’s my current position now and I’ll tell you every day is a little bit different, a little bit challenging. Working with adults is a lot different than working with kids, that’s for sure.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah. That’s actually super curious to me at that moment. As soon as you said that, “I had a question lined up,” how different do you [inaudible 00:09:29] working with adults versus working with kids? We’ve got lots of listeners who are coaches or administrators. We got a lot of teachers who are listening too, who might be thinking about going in that role. Could you give us a little insight on how is it different working with teachers versus working with kids?

Patrick Kosal: I’ll start with the similarities. The one similar thing that I’ve found is definitely relationships are key. When kids come into your classroom day one, you want to get their name down, know something about them, start forming a relationship so they’re more willing to work with you. The same holds true for adults. The high school and the two middle schools that I serve, I didn’t know any of the staff members before I joined up as a coach. Honestly, the first two, three, four months on the job, I was just there to be a shining light and to get to know them, to build that relationship.

Patrick Kosal: Because honestly, when someone’s in your classroom, people put up a front right away. When I’m going in for an observation and just seeing what teachers are doing, seeing what kids are doing, there’s a natural inclination, I think, for teachers to kind of get defensive and protective. Sometimes receiving feedback can be difficult, because you think they’re being judged. I try to always say, “This is not a judgment. I’m not an evaluator. I have nothing to do with your observations or evaluations, I’m there to help. I’m there to just offer some expertise, maybe a different way to see things, some different strategies and ways for them to grow and be better.”

Patrick Kosal: But honestly, all of that is a lot for a teacher. If you just walk in off the street as a stranger and start critiquing what they’re doing in their room, in their eyes. Forming relationships is the number one similarity. The difference, I’ll tell you one. Kids, when they go to school, they kind of know their job is to learn. Sometimes I think when teachers are in the classroom, they think, “Well, I’ve already learned, I’m already done, I’ve got this down.”

Patrick Kosal: Sometimes that can be quite frustrating when you think, “Hey, this is a really cool idea.” Either they dismiss it or they say, “Sure, that’s great,” but then it never gets implemented. I think there’s more of a gradual learning curve for adults. It takes a while for them to see some different strategies and action, and possibly figure out some different class routines and procedures that might promote more of a growth mindset, promote more of a productive struggle. Those kinds of things are difficult for teachers to see.

Patrick Kosal: Let’s face it, we all probably grew up in the area of skill and drill. Besides that, one teacher I had that really showed me different. I didn’t have teachers that were embracing the things we were embracing today. Embracing the work of Joe Bowler and Robert Kaplinsky, things that, so it’s quite a shift for teachers and adults these days.

Kyle Pearce: I really appreciate you breaking it down in that way. The similarities and differences. It’s so funny because as you were talking about the similarities about relationships, I remember it was like I went back to those first few years, back in 2006. As we had said, when I started teaching. I came into the classroom as if it was like, “Well, my job is to teach and your job is to learn.” I’d like to think it would have taken not too long to realize that that was a really horrible approach, but I think it took me a lot longer than I would care to admit.

Kyle Pearce: I think when it comes to working with adults, I think we could miss the mark on that even more so, just because it’s like, “Well, we’re all adults. This is what we’re doing. I’m here to help with supporting you.” That relationship, I think, just as you’ve articulated is critical. Without that relationship, without building that trust, we aren’t really going to get anywhere. Because the difference you highlighted around this idea of us as adults feeling like I’ve already learned that, I think that’s one of those key challenges that we have in the North American education system.

Kyle Pearce: Is that, we have this pressure on ourselves and I don’t know if it’s systemic in nature. I don’t know if anyone’s said this to us, but we put this pressure on ourselves as though we went through our postsecondary education, we went through our pre-service. Then it was like somehow, some way we believed that we were supposed to have all of this stuff figured out, when we know that’s not possible. We haven’t actually spent nearly enough time in the classroom with children to try to figure out how this stuff works. But yet we put this pressure on. I think, I don’t know if it’s just adults themselves who feel this, “I already learned.”

Kyle Pearce: Or if it’s just this pressure that we have to kind of keep this front as the like, “I’ve got this under control. I don’t need coaching because I am a math teacher. If I’m a good math teacher, then I came out of my pre-service program with all the answers.” I don’t know if you see that in some of your experiences in your math coaching role, but I know that’s at least what I feel when I’m in my role as a K-12 consultant, and I go and do workshops, and get a chance to co-teach with some teachers. What’s your perspective on that?

Patrick Kosal: I definitely see that. I definitely see that, teachers, when you offer to co-teach or to model something, a lot of them are like, “No, no, we’re okay. We’re good.” Because they almost think that, because you offer, there’s a deficiency or something. Instead of just, “Hey, we need to practice these strategies if we’re going to get really good at them.” You can really only practice them if you try. It’s hard sometimes for teachers to take that first step, I think, into trying something new, especially something that’s so different and radical.

Patrick Kosal: Now here’s the thing, we have some teachers, of course, that went to school for mathematics. Then in North Carolina, we actually have a big math teacher shortage. We’re pulling in teachers from all different types of business fields and all different types of areas. Those are called lateral entry teachers. Most of the teachers that I support, because I have some schools that have a lot of free, reduced lunch, they have a lot of poverty. Those are the schools unfortunately that deal with a lot of lateral entry teachers.

Patrick Kosal: Teachers who did not go to school for education or for mathematics, they’re coming in from business or some other field; the science field, the military. Some of my job is to help them understand what the standards we’re even asking for, what is intended to be taught in this integrated curriculum, that’s very different from when they went to school. They probably have a tendency to fall back on how they were taught. Which people taught in the ’80s and ’90s were probably taught with desks in rows.

Patrick Kosal: The sage-on-the-stage at the front of the room, and the teacher’s job was to talk and the students job was to write math problems down, mimic and do what the teacher said. That’s what the new teachers I’m getting, often think math class should be. Changing that mindset is one of the difficulties, I think, in working with those teachers. But hey, it’s the challenge, they’re awesome people, that’s for sure. The people who are teaching math these days are just amazing. They’re great people. We just try to update their skills a little bit into the 21st century. Let’s think about what we really need our kids to learn. We have these calculators in our pocket at all times.

Jon Orr: Right. I think I’ve said this on the podcast before, that what you said is true, that most teachers today are just teaching the way … A lot of them, maybe I shouldn’t say most, but a lot of teachers, especially when they start, are teaching the way that they were taught. It’s just natural to do that. I imagine the day where if what we’re doing here, our talks here, which you’re doing in your district, what teachers are doing everywhere, by changing math instruction to fuel sense-making in their students.

Jon Orr: What will it look like in 20 years when the kids who are going through our programs now, they become teachers, or 10 years or five years? I’m hoping that will spark change in, maybe won’t even be changed for these teachers. They’re coming in five, six years from now, and who’ve gone through all of math experience with teachers who are teaching in this sparking curiosity, feeling, sense-making kind of way. Then all of a sudden, you don’t have to convince those teachers because that was their math experience.

Jon Orr: I’m imagining this kind of future that we’re doing a lot of hard work now, but I think the ball will keep rolling here. I think we won’t have those kids that are starting teaching by doing it the way they taught. They will be doing it the way they taught. It just will be different math teaching, I’m imagining this world. You’ve talked a lot about some of the roadblocks you’re having and we want to talk more about that in a little bit. But how about our success, how about a recent success that you’ve had in your role working with teachers from grade 6-12, could you give us an example?

Patrick Kosal: Yes. The little successes are what makes your day in this coaching position. Because like you mentioned, this is a long to row hoe. We have a long way to go and we’re just doing the hard work now, that we’re hoping down the road, way down the horrible payoffs. When you see those little victories, man, that’s when you make your day as a coach. Recently, I did a little PD training about engagement strategies for my high school teachers. I modeled some vocabulary games they can play, modeled off $25,000 pyramid, if you remember that old game.

Patrick Kosal: Where one person, there’s the groups of two, one student has their back to the clues, the other person sees them and has to describe them or act them out. It’s a great vocabulary game for parallel lines or Y intercepts, or things like that. I modeled that game and I just thought, a lot of the things we do, we just say, “Cool, that’s great,” and the teachers kind of move on. But the next day, I had a brand new first year teacher say, “Hey, I made my own game up. What do you think about this? I played this in my classroom and it went really well. Can we make another?”

Patrick Kosal: When you have those little victories, man, it’s like you see the light at the end of the tunnel, and you’re like, “This is great.” Because progress doesn’t come in a huge chunk, it comes chisel by chisel. When you see a brand new teacher say, “I like that, I’m going to just go for it.” That’s the kind of success that makes me really, really excited about my work.

Kyle Pearce: Oh, that’s fantastic. I know that same feeling, and sometimes it’s, I guess a little sad when I think oftentimes, folks that are in positions like you are, where, Patrick, you’re working with educators and you’re probably making a much larger difference than maybe what we realize on a day to day basis, right? Sometimes it’s not super obvious to us. But at the end of the day, when you can actually see the change taking place, I think there’s really something special about that. So that’s fantastic.

Kyle Pearce: As we dive deeper into this call, we’re wondering if we can turn that attention back to maybe some challenges. I know that in your role, in any education role, we’re experiencing challenges all the time. But I can definitely appreciate how challenging it can be when we’re trying to help shift beliefs and perspectives of our teachers, our educators that we’re working with. We’re wondering, is there anything on your mind lately that we can dig into here and see as a three person team here, if we can come up with some next steps and some little ways that we can chisel away?

Patrick Kosal: Yeah. Actually that’s initially why I reached out to you guys. I really was hoping to get some help from you. I want to see what your expertise can help me out with. I love what you guys were doing with your assessment webinar that you recently aired. There was one about dealing with challenging students, I think back in January. Those were just wonderful. Those are great. Your curiosity path is awesome. But when you, let’s just say, show it to a teacher and they say, “Oh great, you have the initial excitement,” but then things kind of taper off. How do you guys follow up with teachers effectively, how do you get the PD to not be a one day blip in their school-year and instead be something that has worthwhile change, if that makes sense?

Jon Orr: Yeah. I know that’s total sense. We consciously think about that anytime we being outsiders to a district, come in and do a one day, even full day workshop because we do that periodically. Then it’s like, “How do we keep that learning going?” I totally get it there for sure. How do we spark consistent ongoing improvement in the teachers that we work with? That’s what you’re asking, right?

Patrick Kosal: Absolutely. Yeah. How do you keep the teachers instead of just being hooked once, how do you keep them on the line? How do you keep them wanting more and digging deeper as the year progresses?

Jon Orr: I take it because you want to do this for your teachers.

Patrick Kosal: Absolutely.

Jon Orr: You go in for one day or a couple of days with the group of teachers, and you also want that same thing, right?

Patrick Kosal: Absolutely. Just sometimes teachers are stuck in one way. They think, “Well, this is the way you teach ratios, for instance, in seventh grade,” and you show them different strategies. You show them a double number line, you show them a ratio table, you show them different ways to draw and model. They think, “Oh, that’s really neat.” Then you go back to their classroom and they’re still doing the butterfly method; cross multiply and things like that.

Patrick Kosal: You’re thinking, “Wow, I look at these strategies and I’m thinking, ‘This is how kids would learn best. Kids would really grab onto this. They’d have multiple ways to grab onto this.” Yet, it tends to go back to what the teacher is familiar with and what they’re used to. How do you get them to see a strategy that’s really interesting and evocative, and keep going with it, I suppose?

Jon Orr: For sure. We’ve addressed this question before. We’ve had this conversation before, Kyle and I have talked about it. We’ve got some definitely some strategies that I think we can throw your way. Before we do that, I’m just curious about your role because I want to be specific for you. If we’re specifically for you or probably specific for the other 100 coaches that are listening to this right now too. The idea is like for example, when you are working with your teachers, how often are you working with your teachers right now and what are you currently doing to instill that ongoing growth with the people you’re working with?

Patrick Kosal: That’s a good and complicated question. I serve three schools and so one high school, I’m there twice a week, every week. One middle school, I’m there once a week, sometimes twice. One school, I’m only there once a week. I’m meeting with teachers once, maybe twice a week. What usually happens is, one week I’ll hold a PLC meeting with the grade level teachers. Let’s say everyone teaching eighth grade or everyone at a high school teaching math 2. We’ll talk about what’s coming up in the curriculum, what are some strategies we can look at, what are some things that worked last year, what does the data show about what kids are doing?

Patrick Kosal: Then the next week, I tend to observe classrooms and I walk through classrooms and see what kids are doing, and see if I notice any strategies that could help a teacher out. That’s another one of my struggles, is that, I’m not with the same school, the same group of teachers every day. It really is kind of a weekly drop by. I think that’s where a lot of the good consistent PD is lost, because they see something and then a week later, I might follow-up.

Kyle Pearce: I’m looking at that and I can definitely relate. I know Jon in his day to day work, he’s in the classroom. Whereas I’ve been out of the classroom for a handful of years here doing similar work across my district. I get flopped around to different schools, trying to get that consistency. Even having three schools sounds like manageable, but as you’re mentioning, those gaps between when you see teachers can be challenging, right? To try to get some sort of consistency. I’m wondering in terms of, what might it look like if a teacher is … You’re working with a teacher, maybe it’s in a PLC, how typically, I know this is going to be a complex scenario for you to explain again.

Kyle Pearce: But typically, how might the direction maybe the focus, kind of like your overarching goal when you’re working with, say, a teacher or maybe it’s a small PLC group of teachers, how does that tend to emerge? Is it sort of, you come in and you have an idea to share with them and see if they latch on, or is there some other sort of method or approach that you tend to bring? When you bring this idea, let’s say the double number line for example, you notice this butterfly method happening or cross multiplying, or?

Kyle Pearce: Today, I was actually doing a workshop and I started rattling off all the different ways that you could solve a proportion, right? Why thingy thing is one that I used to use from a good friend and colleague who taught me that the magic circle, all these things, but the understanding wasn’t there. I’m just wondering, how does that focus or at goal setting process happen when you are working with a teacher and you’re hoping to nudge them? Is it one of these things that just happens in the moment or is this something that you tend to bring a certain idea to the table? I’m just curious about that just so we have a better understanding of what that might look like or sound like.

Patrick Kosal: Yeah, sure. I think what usually happens is, at least this year, because I have my feet under me. Last year was my first year on the job and I was just kind of figuring out the role and building relationships. But this year, I really want to work for teacher capacity. I want them to have more understanding of the math and see different strategies for how to present it, instead of just the one way, instead of just the procedural. Usually the way I’ll start a PLC meeting is, I’ll pull in a resource that’s not from the curriculum they’re using.

Patrick Kosal: For example, for middle school, my schools are using the ready curriculum from Curriculum Associates. I will maybe pull in an activity from Illustrative Math or the Open Up Curriculum, or something different that presents it with a different spin. So they aren’t urged to use a double number line or they’re implied to use a ratio table. Just to show the teachers how that math would look. Because I really think that the best part of PLC is doing the math with other math teachers, to show them some different strategies and different perspectives, and get their mindset a little bit changed.

Patrick Kosal: Get them thinking a little bit more like Joe Bowler and thinking that there are multiple strategies to get to the good mathematics, not just one way. Usually what I’ll do is, I’ll give some kind of a different style of questioning that we do together, we talk about how it may look. Then we look at what are the upcoming standards for the week or the two weeks. We’ll look at how the data was from the last assessment, to see what we need to spiral. We only really have about an hour usually to meet, maybe an hour or 10.

Patrick Kosal: We got to be pretty concise with what we’re doing. But I really want to put more of the emphasis here on doing the math together. When I say doing the math, I mean exploring different strategies for the mathematics and not just have them locked into the curriculums designated approach, if that makes sense. Does that help?

Jon Orr: Yeah. You’re saying overall, you’re trying to … I think I get the picture is like you’re imagining this kind of holistic teacher that you want to move your teachers to. It’s like you’re trying to slowly implement different ways that they can get to this teacher who’s taking all these different ideas. It just like this teacher that’s got these different strategies and they can go here and go here, and help the kids learn and fuel their sense-making, and I totally get that. I’m just being very specific and trying to imagine what these interactions look like with you and your teachers.

Jon Orr: Let’s say you were meeting with your teacher, you’re talking about those strategies, you look at the standards that are coming up and then how does that end? You’re like you’ve met with them that week. When you leave that hour, what are you leaving for them to do next, what does that look like going forward?

Patrick Kosal: That is actually one of my big struggles, I think. Is knowing what to task them with, what can I send them away with? I guess it is a mission sound too complex. I want to give them a mission for something to try and do, and then we can talk about next meeting. I think a lot of times, our meetings just kind of end. We just say, “Here’s what’s coming up, here’s my assessment that we’re going to use or we’re going to talk about these different strategies, see you next week.” It just kind of, “We’ve run out of time.”

Patrick Kosal: I guess I don’t have a good way to put a bow on everything we did and give them something to bring back next time. As I’m talking this through with you guys and this is really appreciated, it makes me see that, what I said before about keeping them on the hook, it’s kind of part of my job right there. I got to send them away with something so their mind is still working as they’re walking out of the PLC. They’re still thinking about some strategies when I’m not around. Instead of just stay an hour of their time where they get to “explore math,” and then go back to the real world.

Kyle Pearce: Right. I think that’s great. I’m getting a little giddy over here because there’s a few things that I really am hoping that we’ll be able to dive into and at least discuss, and really look at here as potential options. But I’m wondering, before we do that, just to make sure we round this out and really Jon and I, we tend to really, and I struggle with this. I openly will say this to everyone listening, we’re really trying to make sure that we fully understand exactly that pain point, right, and really understanding like what is this challenge?

Kyle Pearce: I’m wondering now, I think we’re very clear on that. But now just to make sure that we can help you get to where you want to go, can you think about this and take yourself into the future, and pretend like this is no longer a challenge anymore. This idea of some teachers going like, “Wow, that’s a really cool thing,” but then you come back and it’s not actually happening, right? That change isn’t happening or at least not as quickly as you’re hoping, or as deeply as you’re hoping.

Kyle Pearce: What would that look like if this challenge was no longer an issue? We could snap our fingers and all of a sudden, boom, it was fixed. What we talked about today actually worked. That’s given Jon and I a lot of credit here, but that was possible.

Patrick Kosal: [inaudible 00:31:05] fellors. Good job.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah. What do you think, what would that look like, what would that sound like, what would change in your world as an instructional coach?

Patrick Kosal: I think two things. I would be just tickled pink if I could see happen. Number one, if I would walk into classrooms and see kids collaborating and talking more than the teachers. That’s the number one thing I really want to see happen. I think all the strategies I’m trying to promote, kind of pull in some of that talk-time away from teachers, and letting kids take more ownership of the mathematics and the strategies they’re using, the problem solving. In the classroom setting, that’s my overall goal. Is how do we help teachers let go a little bit of all the responsibilities of the all-knowing teacher, and let kids struggle and figure things out with groups and partners? That would just be a dream. That’s number one.

Patrick Kosal: Number two, I think, is to kind of remove myself from the equation for teachers. I want to see teachers step up and find different resources, and try different strategies and share things among themselves. Today at the high school department meeting I led, we talked about learning walks. Where groups of teachers will just go from classroom to classroom for maybe five minutes to see what other people in the building are doing. I think that’s a huge strategy that teachers don’t employ at all. They kind of teach in isolation.

Patrick Kosal: They don’t see the great things that I get to see when I’m going from room to room, and therefore, they’re not learning from each other. I would love to remove myself from the equation as you know, “expert in instruction” and let the teachers say, “Hey, I’m doing this strategy, it worked really well.” Another teacher say, “Hey, I’ve got planning. Let me come in and watch you.” That would be ideal for me as a coach to see the teachers elevate to be coaches themselves.

Jon Orr: I love that you’re thinking that big and that’s great. Now what I’m imagining, we’ve been talking about what that can look like, what’s going on right now. Before we jump in here, I’m wondering if you’ve thought maybe like what would be a first step that you could take to try to make that a reality before? Because it’s not a reality yet, it’s the future. But what could be a first step that you could make now, that would make that a reality?

Patrick Kosal: Whew. Okay. That’s a big one.

Jon Orr: Making you work tonight.

Patrick Kosal: I know. Yeah, you’re really stretching me. That’s good. People are when they’re uncomfortable, right? This is good stuff. Gosh, I think I saw Steve Leinwand, who’s one of the NCTM past presidents, speak last year. He said something about, “If teachers can’t do what they don’t see,” and I really believe that. I believe that teachers have to see it in action, to really buy in. I think that, that means a little bit more of either, A; the learning walks, where they can see other teachers work their magic. Or B; maybe a little bit more co-teaching and model teaching with me.

Patrick Kosal: I think I got maybe pull on those relationships a little bit and say, “Hey, you know what? Let’s plan together and either co-teach a lesson or co-teach a couple of days, or even just let me do the warmup and you do the notes, and I’ll do the guided practice or whatever the teacher feels comfortable with.” I think that modeling some of that would let them see it in action and then be therefore, more likely to implement it themselves. That’s what I’m thinking about but man, that’s a big task.

Kyle Pearce: For sure. I really appreciate you being vulnerable with us and sharing this, because this is a big challenge and we obviously wouldn’t invite you onto the show with this particular challenge if it wasn’t something that so many other people face. I know this is really a tough one because again, we can go all the way back to the beginning of this interview. You had really referenced it, is that a lot of teachers feel like, “I’m good. I don’t need Patrick. I don’t need Jon. I don’t need anyone, Steve Leinwand. I don’t need anyone. I’m good, I’m happy, I’m fine.”

Kyle Pearce: That can be a really tough one. I think there’s this challenge and I’ll just share from my own experience what I ran into early in my coaching experience and my coaching, I’ll call it tenure. I came out and I was a sharer of resources and strategies, and tasks, and there was benefit to that. There’s nothing wrong with doing that at all, because there’s always some people who take it in, especially those real keeners, right? Those teachers who are there and they’re like, “I want more, I want Patrick to come back and I want to continue stealing these ideas from you,” which we all steal from other places, right?

Kyle Pearce: We all go, and we say steal, but really what we’re saying is, we go and learn. We’re learners and we find these strategies, and we apply them and that’s great. But when we talk about the teachers that we’re specifically talking about tonight, those ones that maybe they’re just not convinced yet. There’s this balance between awareness. I feel like what I did for a number of years, was I made teachers aware of these ideas. I think a lot of teachers in the moment, and you mentioned it, is this idea of like, “Yeah, that does seem really cool.”

Kyle Pearce: But then you come back a few days later and they’re not applying some of those strategies. The difference between awareness and implementation, there’s a real huge gap there. Being able to work together in an ongoing way, I think is really important. You have that luxury even though it is probably a little more spread out than you’d like, but you still get to come back and work with these same people. I’m wondering, when we come to the table, maybe, it might even be worth it to back up and start thinking about; what is it that we want for our students?

Kyle Pearce: For those people, as we’re recording this right now, our online workshop is in session. Actually when this goes live, we’ll actually be about to start our spring session for our online workshop. One of the things we ask, and we do this in live PD sessions and we also do it in the online workshop. Is we start right away and we try to get people thinking about; what do you want for your students five years from now, like if you were to bump into them somewhere in town? This happens to me all the time. I always say, it’s always tends to be at the beer store.

Kyle Pearce: Here in Canada, we have the beer store. That’s where you bumped into a former student. I like to ask them, “What do you remember from math class five years ago?” Really trying to get, what is it that we want for our kids? Because sometimes I wonder, if we haven’t set that idea, that goal, that vision for what we want our students to leave us with. I’m talking five years from now, but even think by the end of this school-year, what is it that we want? Sometimes just setting that goal, that vision, can be a great place to start.

Kyle Pearce: Then also, to help us start focusing in on specific ideas around, when I’m coming to work … Patrick, you and I are working together. Patrick’s coming to work with me in my classroom and we set this vision. Patrick, you being my coach, get an understanding of what I’m hoping to achieve in my class and what I want my students to achieve. Then we can maybe start to focus in on something a little more specific. The hard part is, there’s so many things we want for our kids, but I think sometimes we just have to start going small.

Kyle Pearce: I’m wondering, based on what we’re seeing there, are there any ideas you have, any current thoughts or reflections after you hear this idea of this goal setting? Then maybe we could even dive into that a little bit more, and give some ideas and suggestions on what that could look like or sound like when you sit down with a group.

Patrick Kosal: No. I think that actually pushes me right where I need to be, I should say. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with the work of Jim Knight. I think he’s from your neck of the woods up in Canada, but wow, he’s like the godfather of coaching. We read his impact cycle right when we were getting started on this journey with our district. Getting teachers to think about; what is their overall goal, what’s their coaching cycle look like? It’s going to be personal for every teacher. That makes me think, Kyle, what you were saying, what is their big takeaway, what do they want their kids, their students to have at the end of the year?

Patrick Kosal: In five years, how should they be remembering their classroom? I’m thinking about how few of my teachers have a mission statement posted or some core beliefs. I think, I don’t really know what a lot of my teachers are after, ultimately. Do they just want to get better test scores, are they just hoping to be left alone? What are their goals for their students, do they want compliance in their classroom and just kind of have it be orderly and quiet, or do they want to have a little bit of chaos where the kids are exploring, and talking and trying new strategies?

Jon Orr: Sorry. I would just jump in here because I wanted to jump in on what you’re saying here about what their goals are. Since we’re talking about goals and especially with your teacher ranges. Grade 6-12 teachers are probably the hardest, like you’ve experienced to set on the path to learn new ideas. Kyle and I totally agree that they’re the hardest to work with. If you had to work with teachers who are teaching these grades; two, three, four and five, they’re great. Everyone seems to be like, “I want to know more strategies.”

Jon Orr: They’re the easiest to work with. It’s always the high school, middle school, maybe more high school teachers that are like, “I’m a math guy or a math teacher, I know what to do.” But where we’ve had the most success about these goals is to be very specific about their pain points. Instead of saying, “What goals do you want your kids to learn?” Because that’s good too. But ask the teachers, “What is your biggest pain point right now or biggest struggle?” After they say, “Kids not showing up and kids showing up late.” All those normal things that they’re going to say, these are the things that you’re probably can’t help with.

Jon Orr: But after they get over that, they’re most likely to say or you can bring up, “Kids are just,” they’ll all agree that kids are just terrible problem solvers. When they agree to that or they might have something similar that they’re saying, it’s like everything you do from that point on with them, any other goals you set, any big ideas you bring out, any resources that you share with them, is now in the light to fix that main pain point. That’s been our most successful way to convince teachers who normally won’t or make any changes in their teaching instruction.

Jon Orr: Is, you hit them with, “Where is their pain point? Let’s fix that pain point.” That’s our goal and we want to make that goal a specific time period. We want to do those SMART kind of goals; specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, time-based. Everything that you do from here on out, is to address that pain point, to minimize it.

Patrick Kosal: I’m so glad you said that Jon, because that’s very much like Jim Knight’s book. He says, “Just go ask teachers what’s bugging you. What’s bugging you?” That’s I think the pain point you’re referring to, like what’s the number one arc that’s on their mind, what’s the problem? Then you can have some teachers say, “Well, my kids just won’t sit down, they’re always disruptive.” “Okay, let’s work on classroom management. Let’s talk about some strategies.” “Or my kids are just failing all these tests. I don’t know what I’m doing.” “Okay well, let’s look at how your assessments are written.”

Patrick Kosal: “The kids aren’t doing their homework,” “Let’s talk about what homework you’re giving, how much you’re giving, what is actually assessing, how are you grading it, are you grading it?” I think you’re bringing up a lot of things that I’ve learned through the coaching process, but kind of get away from you as you go through the day to day, if that makes sense. These pain points you’re talking about, wow, this is good stuff. So thank you so much.

Kyle Pearce: You know what, Patrick, it’s so funny if Jon wasn’t in this interview with me. We are so lucky because we get to play off of one another, and sit back and think, and reflect as the conversations happening. I tend to really struggle rushing in, and I don’t know if you can tell in folks who are listening at home, we really, really try to slow it down and try to get into your brain. We’re talking essentially the same way, trying to use some of the same strategies. Is Patrick, if you were one of the teachers you were working with is really trying to have this conversation about you and your specific challenge.

Kyle Pearce: Even though like right now, I would love to talk to you about number talks or I would love to talk to you about 3 Act Math Tasks. There’s all these other things that we could talk about and I would love to share. But at the same time, it’s that just in time, right, trying to figure out. I find it’s just like knowing our learners in our classroom. Because for years, I used to “teach,” but I wasn’t actually teaching, I was just saying what was next. For some of the students in my class, they weren’t ready for what was next.

Kyle Pearce: That wasn’t where they were at, and I feel like for a lot of teachers, that’s exactly the same thing. Thinking of it from that Jim Knight perspective, Jon and I, we tend to even run these episodes like we’re going to let the cat out of the bag. I think we’ve already done this a few times in the past, but we run these episodes, these math mentoring moment episodes off of the back of the coaching habit, which is a book. It’s not even a book intended for math instruction particularly, it’s just about coaching in general.

Kyle Pearce: It’s actually for coaching in business, for CEO’s coaching some of their employees and things along those lines. Really just trying to ensure that we get to the root of what we’re after. For example, you had said, if there’s a teacher who said, “Well, I just want my kids to sit down,” and it’s like, “Well, okay, that’s what you think you want.” Then it’s like, “Can you tell me more about that,” then it’s going deeper and deeper. It’s like the five why’s. Try to ask why five times and then you’ll actually know what is actually going on, and really trying to dig deep in there.

Kyle Pearce: Then, once you figure that thing out, it makes it much easier on us as the coach. I’m saying you and I, Patrick, as the coaches because now we know exactly what the teacher wants to learn about. Then we can kind of hyper focus, I like to say. It’s not to say that we’re going to ignore all these other really good things, but it just gives us something where we can focus in on, we can make sure that we can make some. By doing that, actually bite off enough that we can deal with, instead of biting off too much, right?

Kyle Pearce: For me, sometimes, that starts with things like talking about different mathematical proficiencies. In our district, we try to talk with our administrators about setting their school focus around this goal of mathematical proficiency. There are five of them, but we can’t fix all five in this school-year. Let’s focus in on one, what’s the one that we really want to focus in on? Then even more so, a resource that might be worth your time and maybe you’ve read it, but even bringing this into some of those planning meetings could be the principles to actions; the eight effective teaching practices.

Kyle Pearce: Those eight effective teaching practices are great ways to narrow the focus down, in order to try to address one of those five mathematical proficiencies. That’s something that in our district, we’re really starting to move towards. I’ve been in this particular type of role for quite some time, halftime teaching for five years and halftime coaching. Then now in this role, this is my fourth year in this role. I’m working on nine years and we’re finally realizing like, “Oh my goodness, maybe we need to zoom in on something so that it’s attainable, right? That I can actually make a difference there.”

Kyle Pearce: We don’t find ourselves one day talking about tools and representations, and then the next day talking about mathematical discourse. Then the next time we meet, we’re talking about productive struggle. It’s like we can focus in, like let’s focus in on one. The result is, when we go deep enough with any one of those eight teaching practices, what we end up finding is that, you have to do some of the other stuff too and it sort of is like a gateway to all these other practices. It’s almost like once we get a little bit of that momentum going, you start to see it growing.

Kyle Pearce: Then all of a sudden, next thing you know, you’re not just hanging out over here in this area; mathematical discourse. Now you’re focusing on making connections amongst representations or eliciting student thinking, or whatever it is that you want to focus in on. You start to pull these other ones in, and eventually, it starts to grow. When they see that they’re experiencing success that, “Hey, we set a goal, we’ve achieved this small.” I’d say it’s small, there’s still big goals, but it’s like it’s a focused goal.

Kyle Pearce: When you see you’re making progress, I feel like that’s like that fuel, right? You start throwing more fuel on the fire and it just keeps things going. After you’ve lit that, you’ve sparked it and now we’re fueling them to continue moving along. For me, I think that’s one of those key pieces that’s helped me in the recent past couple of years, anyway. I want to turn it back to you and sort of get your thoughts on that. Any clarifying questions or just your current wonderings based on what we’ve been sharing in this last little bit here?

Patrick Kosal: Well, Kyle, what you were saying speaks to me a lot because I’m similar to you in that. I’m pretty action-oriented, I suppose. I think I mentioned that, when I found a strategy, I was like, “Cool, let’s try it.” I was just very gung-ho and eager, and I feel like I have to pull back from that aspect of my personality or coaching. Because like you said, teachers are at different areas in their development, and they need different things and they can’t necessarily be bombarded constantly with something.

Patrick Kosal: I tend to move from one area to another, because if I might see this teacher has some trouble with management, is too teacher-centered, there’s no discourse. I might try to fix a lot of bit different areas at once, instead of like you’re saying, go deep on one area, especially an area that they want. They chose, they want the specific assistance in. I think that’s definitely an area I can tweak my coaching to be more effective. Is to go for the depth, and kind of ignore the rest until we hit that goal and move on to something else.

Patrick Kosal: One question I have for you guys is, I guess a lot of resistance I hear and I’m sure you hear about this as well, is about the time that the teachers don’t have, how fast they got to move through the curriculum and the pressure that they have for standardized testing. The schools that I’m in, are in trouble. They’re in danger of State takeover in a couple years, potentially. I don’t think that’s going to happen, but there’s a constant pressure from administration that, “Hey, you got to get those scores up, got to get those scores up.” That’s what I hear.

Patrick Kosal: I try to keep that away from the teachers as much as possible, because they need to just worry about good teaching. I really fundamentally believe that good teaching will take care of the rest. How do you guys deal with, I guess, that kind of pressure when you’re trying to go for these depths and these little small battles, and you’re building the teacher holistically when you know you have these fires to put out at the school level with these test scores?

Kyle Pearce: That is definitely a challenge, and something I tend to try and I definitely don’t come out and say it as bluntly. But it’s one of those scenarios where it’s like, “Well, how’s our current approach working?” When we think about that, we feel this pressure and I know it, I get it. My wife’s a teacher as well. Here in Ontario, we have three standardized tests, years three, six and nine. She’s a grade three teacher, and you wear that weight on your shoulder as an educator. I think we wear it every year, but in those particular years here in Ontario, you get this added weight or pressure.

Kyle Pearce: But at the end of the day, again, I think it’s like with that goal setting. If we really can build that trust and the relationships as you had referenced right at the beginning of the podcast, and really getting to this place where we can have open and honest, and vulnerable conversations. One of those pieces that I like to really talk about is just this idea that, if the way we’ve always done things doesn’t seem to be getting it done, then we have to try. We have to try making a change. The one other piece too, that I always tell my educators I work with now, I never used to do this.

Kyle Pearce: But now I say, “I do not want you to do something in your classroom that you do not believe will be helpful.” If we as a team, we cannot get you to understand the logic as to why this would work, then I have to find another way to help make that apparent. Like, “Wow, this would be a really good thing if I could do blank,” right? If not, what I tend to see is, even if we make a commitment as a PLC group and say, “Hey, we’re all going to do X, Y, or Z.” But you notice that someone in the group doesn’t understand why we’re trying the strategy or just clearly isn’t feeling comfortable, or able to implement in a way that’s going to be meaningful, maybe they’ve missed the whole idea behind it.

Kyle Pearce: That could really be a challenge. Looking at the time, I fear that we’ll go too deep into this conversation. I’m wondering for those who are listening about this and even for yourself, Patrick, we would love to have you back on in our future episode to maybe dive specifically into this piece. But there’s also an episode, back on episode 12, we actually focused an entire episode around this idea of covering the curriculum. That might also be something between now and then that you might want to check out. Because we know that that pressure is there and we definitely don’t want to downplay that by any means, because this is the reality for teachers.

Kyle Pearce: But what we can do is try to help through some of those coaching conversations, to help them kind of see, “If we are in this place where things aren’t working so well, then maybe, what better time?” I like to say, what better time than now to try something new, right? When you have really high standardized test scores in the ’90s or whatever it is, I can understand why some of those teachers are like, “I don’t want to change a thing, because I’ve got the magic sauce here.” Even though it might be something kids are just memorizing procedurally and they all have after-school tutors to help them memorize tricks.

Kyle Pearce: We don’t really know. But I can imagine how a teacher would struggle to change their teaching practice in that scenario. But when we are really struggling to get those scores to a place where we aren’t in, we call it tricky spot, it sounds like maybe some of the schools or the districts you’re working with are, that might be at least a way to start having that conversation. Although again, a big one and probably best for us to dive deeper into a future episode.

Patrick Kosal: Yeah, that sounds good. The teachers that are working with the Tufts students, I think their natural tendency is to say, “Well, they don’t have the skills, so let’s go back to procedures and basic fluency instead of-

Kyle Pearce: Confuse them, right?

Patrick Kosal: Exactly. If I give them a multiple techniques. But ultimately the teachers I work with, like you said, they want the best for students. They are there because they care and they want to help, and they want to educate, and they’re really good people. I think that keeping a positive perspective as a coach and just saying, “Hey, we’re talking about growing people, which is a really big process,” that’s something to keep in the back of your mind. I really appreciate all your time tonight guys, to help my pain points. Help push me a little bit and get to a better spot as a coach

Jon Orr: We were hoping that you had some time to reflect and think about what’s going on in the meetings that you’re having with your teachers and what’s going on there. We’ve shared some suggestions, but I think from hearing you talk about some of the things, your next steps are going to look like. I feel like they kind of came from you anyway. They may be, was just the questioning that kind of led you to start thinking about what you’re going to do next. But-

Patrick Kosal: Well, you’re right. I think the takeaways that I’m thinking of are the two you mentioned; what’s the mission statement, what is it that we want? Let’s back up, as Kyle was saying before. I think that going back to the ultimate goal for these students is a number one thing I’m taking away from this conversation. Then thinking about giving teachers a task at the end of a PLC, something to propel them through the week and come back excited for the next meeting. Those are the things that I wrote down in my notes, that I’m definitely going to be thinking about over the next couple of months.

Kyle Pearce: Awesome.

Jon Orr: Well, at the timing of this is going live, I believe our workshop is coming up. It’s in January, we’ll be opening the doors to the workshop. I think, Patrick, you would be a perfect fit for the workshop and we would love to give you free access to get into that workshop in January. Would you like to participate in that workshop come January with our next cohort of teachers?

Patrick Kosal: Absolutely. I would love to. My administration certificate will be done in December, so I’ll be done with grad school and I’ll have January and second semester. All that, I get it to you guys. That sounds great.

Jon Orr: Awesome. So after the episode, we’ll give you the details on how to get into that and get access to all of that. We just want to thank you for joining us here on the podcast. Kyle.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah. I just wanted to give Patrick and opportunity. If you’re on any social channels, if you have anything that you wanted to share, maybe there’s some people listening who … If you are a coach of any type, guaranteed that they are having some similar challenges so maybe they’d like to connect with you on social media or any other means. If you don’t mind sharing anything, any social handles, anything that you want to share with those who are listening. If they want to get connected.

Patrick Kosal: Now, that’s great. You can search me on Facebook, Patrick Kosal and on Twitter I am @mrkosal, M-R-K-O-S-A-L. I’m infrequent Twitter but frequent follower of different math education sites. I love stalking Twitter to find some interesting new education ideas, so I would love to connect with you that way.

Jon Orr: Yeah. We just want to thank you, Patrick, for joining us and we hope you enjoy the rest of your evening.

Patrick Kosal: Thanks guys. You’ve been a big help and I appreciate it very much.

Jon Orr: Thanks Patrick. We’ll talk to you soon.

Kyle Pearce: As always, both Jon and I learned so much from these math mentoring moment episodes. But in order to ensure we hang on to this new learning, we must reflect on what we’ve learned. An excellent way to ensure this learning sticks, is to reflect and create a plan for yourself, to take action on something that resonated with you.

Jon Orr: A great way to hold yourself accountable is to write down and even better share it with someone; your partner or colleagues, or with the math moment maker community, by commenting on the show notes page, tagging @MakeMathMoments on social media. Or in our free private Facebook group, Math Moment Makers K-12. Before we go, we want to let you know that if you’re listening to this before January 31st, 2020, then you’re cutting it pretty close to joining us for our 12-week full online workshop.

Kyle Pearce: That’s right. We are eager and excited to dive into our online workshop that’s designed to walk you through step by step, to help you teach through real world problems. That’s right. Teach through task and create those resilient problem solvers that you are after. If you’re interested in learning more about registering, be sure to check out, MakeMathMoments.com/onlineworkshop. If you’re listening after the spring of 2020 registration closes, you can still head to that page; MakeMathMoments.com/onlineworkshop, to join the waiting list, in order to be notified of your next opportunity to participate, which would be this coming fall.

Jon Orr: That’s MakeMathMoments.com/onlineworkshop. If you’re interested in learning more about registering, be sure to check that out; MakeMathMoments.com/onlineworkshop.

Kyle Pearce: Again, MakeMathMoments.com/onlineworkshop. Are you interested in joining us for an upcoming math mentoring moment episode, where you can share a big math class struggle? Apply over at MakeMathMoments.com/mentor, that’s MakeMathMoments.com/mentor.

Jon Orr: In order to ensure you don’t miss out on new episodes as they come out each week, be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform.

Kyle Pearce: Show notes and links to resources from this episode can be found at MakeMathMoments.com/episode60. Again, that’s MakeMathMoments.com/episode, and the numerals six, zero. Well, until next time, I’m Kyle Pearce.

Jon Orr: And I’m Jon Orr.

Kyle Pearce: High fives for us.

Jon Orr: And high fives for you.