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We know principals are busy—constantly managing urgent issues and putting out fires. But we also know this: school-level change is the most powerful lever we have for improving student learning in math. So the real question is: are we setting school leaders up for success?

In this episode, we help you reflect on your current systems and support structures using a simple leadership audit:

• How are we positioning principals to take ownership of instructional leadership in math?

• Are they aligned to the school’s math goals?

• What’s getting in the way—and how can we fix it?

You’ll hear about common barriers schools face and gain actionable ideas from our work across North America to overcome them. If we want meaningful math improvement, engaging principals is not optional—it’s essential.

Key Takeaways:

• Why principals are essential for leading instructional change in math

• How to identify and remove barriers that limit their involvement

• What it looks like when district and school leadership are aligned on math goals

• Questions to help you audit your current leadership structures

• Strategies to build principal ownership and capacity in math instruction

Attention District Math Leaders:

Not sure what matters most when designing math improvement plans? Take this assessment and get a free customized report: https://makemathmoments.com/grow/ 

Ready to design your math improvement plan with guidance, support and using structure? Learn how to follow our 4 stage process. https://growyourmathprogram.com 

Looking to supplement your curriculum with problem based lessons and units? Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Yvette Lehman: On our last Thursday episode, we talked about the importance of the school level leader in creating these systems for sustainable change and math improvement. And in that episode, we talked about the district’s responsibility in empowering and supporting school level leaders to be positioned to engage in this work. In this episode, we’re going to do an audit and unpack the role of the principal or the vice principal or that school level leadership team.

Jon Orr: Well, let’s dig in. Let’s dig in. So the principal role is an essential role. And I think we commented this last time, because we were talking about specifically how do we support our principals, but often gets overlooked in terms of designing support for math instruction and for math improvement. We tend to focus a lot of the priorities around teachers and making sure our teachers are equipped. it sounds like it makes sense. It sounds like we should be making sure that

let’s make sure our teachers have the right resources. Let’s make sure they get the right tools. Let’s make sure they get the right strategies. Let’s make sure they have the right understanding so that they are best equipped to teach their standards at a high level or at the level that we want them to be teaching using their existing, say, resources and curriculums. Like all this makes sense where why we would dedicate everything we can because they’re working with students directly around mathematics. And then if you take one step out, sometimes it’s like,

where that next layer comes is like, where are our department chairs? Where are our math leaders, like specifically, you know, our math department heads and or curriculum leaders specifically at sites. Like, let’s download, you know, the support there. Because sometimes that happens is that at their district levels, we have, say, the district support saying, okay, let’s support district wide. Okay, who do we help at school sites? We skip over the principal, or we talk to the principal and the principal says,

department chairs, the person to go to because I’m not a math person. And then all of a sudden, now we bypass that person. So we want to talk about like, why it’s so essential to not make that skip? If or if I am the principal, how to not avoid making that skip. And if I’m not the principal, how do we include the principal? And what are the roles of the principal or what should be the roles of the principal? We’re gonna we’re gonna lean on some research here today.

Kyle Pearce: I love this. And you know, as we dig in, it’s really what I’m hearing is there’s this theme of like, we all have to be in this together regardless at every single level. And that’s a hard thing. You know, we were just discussing before we hit record that if we’re not all in, then it is an incredibly difficult journey. Let me, let me correct myself. If we’re all in, it’s still hard, right?

But if we’re not all in, my goodness, it makes it so much harder because there’s so many assumptions that are being made out there as to what people are or are not doing out there, right? So this is really key. Yvette, help us out. Let’s talk about this and we’re gonna use a bit of a continuum again like we did in the last episode. Let’s talk about the principal’s role and let’s talk about some early stages of this implementation. talking about, you know,

potentially no implementation or just starting along this journey so that people have a clear vision of like, where might we be at along this journey? And what next steps can I take to sort of inch ourselves along?

Yvette Lehman: So I think no surprise to anyone, our kind of no implementation or we’re at this time kind of describing it as level zero, is the administrator is not involved in math improvement goals.

Jon Orr: Right, which is the scenario where you kind of introduced the issue with is that a lot of times it just doesn’t happen.

Yvette Lehman: Right. Where a one is that the administrator is aware of a math goal, but plays a passive role. So the way I would describe that is that a math goal has been created, maybe by someone else, maybe it’s by the department chair, or maybe it’s by your math lead in your building or your coach set the goal with the teachers. So the principal knows that it’s been established, but

hasn’t been directly involved in the creation of that goal or the monitoring of that goal. So it’s almost like the responsibility has been downloaded or maybe the goal was set by the district and bypasses, right?

Jon Orr: Yeah, like I was—well, how about the framework was set by the district and say like your school improvement goal for math should look like this, where look at your—look at your achievement data for standardized test results or pass rates, whatever you want to do, and then go set it based off like the percentage you want to hit for next year. Like—like would you say that that is a goal where the principal is involved or not involved or is that a passive role because—

Kyle Pearce: and then download it to the admin. Yeah.

Jon Orr: It was in a way structured to say, here’s exactly what your goal has to look like. And really where you’re looking for improvement on say your, your, your scores and you don’t really get a say in otherwise than that. And that’s, you’re kind of forced into saying like, well, we’re all making that, which means like, did the district really just make that goal? You know, could they have just said, let me look at your scores and set the number.

Yvette Lehman: Yeah. So I think all of these scenarios are kind of captured in this, let’s call it level one, where it’s like, maybe a goal exists, but the, the principal didn’t really have, leave their fingerprints on it in any way, right? Like it was either decided by somebody else. And I think the most important part is when it comes to the goal itself, like the actual, are we going to hit this goal by the end of the year? They’re now taking a backseat to that.

Jon Orr: Right. They downloaded it someone else.

Yvette Lehman: Like they’re not involved in the work that’s going to happen in order to achieve the goal.

Kyle Pearce: like how you had mentioned about the fingerprint piece, because it’s like, even if it’s downloaded on me as the administrator, so I’m the one receiving this and maybe I don’t fully understand it. Maybe I didn’t receive the support. So if we go back to the last episode and the district didn’t, you know, wasn’t far along this continuum and I’m just receiving it, it’s almost like my duty. If I want to assist in math improvement within my building is to take this and somehow feel that I have ownership over it and then

find a way to bring this to my staff, kind of brings us into, you know, number two here, stage two of this process. What might that look like and sound like? Maybe it is downloaded, maybe it’s not, but ultimately at the end of the day, we’re seeing the administrator become more involved, obviously, in this process.

Yvette Lehman: Yeah, so let’s kind of look at maybe two or I guess we’re at, yeah, two and three. We’ll look at them at the same time. So obviously if we’re moving along this continuum, a little bit further would be the administrator was part of the team who created the goal. The administrator is showing up and participating in the PD. We talked about that as far as the district. Remember last time on our episode, Kyle, we talked about, know, oftentimes administrators were invited to PD.

but do they attend? So if the district is giving you the opportunity to attend Math PD alongside your team and teachers, in this scenario, the admin is showing up and they are encouraging achievement of their goal. So that’s kind of our level two. If we take that a little bit further, we start to get into this idea of like actively partnering. So that’s where I think that like the change starts to happen where the administrator sees themselves not only as,

I set the direction, I show up to the PD, I encourage change, but now they’re actively partnering to support the change. So maybe let’s talk about what that looks like to actively partner with the team.

Jon Orr: Yeah, and I was just going to say before we say what that specifically looks like, but this is getting into the land of like where, you know, research is saying that when we have relationships like this, our schools, our students, the work, the coordination that’s happening in terms of focus around math improvement, math instruction is getting into that optimal zone. know, the book that we’ve been referencing lately in this

in our podcast series here on those Thursday episodes has been, know, systems for instructional improvement. And when we have say a a tight relationship between the district, the school site, the coach, the practicing classroom teacher, when we have alignment and coordination there, schools and school districts are performing better than other schools and school districts. And when we involve those key persons, those key persons, because, you know, when you have that administrator who’s

owning, this is where we were talking about last time and specifically like who owns the goal or who owns the work that’s happening, who’s the accountable person and who’s making sure that we’re moving in the right direction. When the principal paired with the math coach at the school site owns those co-ownership, this is where things move smoother. If the teacher is now co-owning with those folks, then that’s even better, right? We’re moving this way and this is why

we need to make sure that we’re looking at this as a, you know, striving towards this end of the spectrum. Whereas most times, like we said before, it’s like middle land, it’s the administrator, you know, is passing this to this person or has been passed over. But when we have this happening, so why this is important, right, is to make decisions around this. Like if I’m an administrator, I should make decisions around what are my priorities, what do I want to make the movement towards? If I’m at district levels, you know, am I making this a priority in our system?

And if I’m a coach, do I coach up to build these relationships and bring these people in? Because that’s gonna be the main question that we maybe want, not maybe, we should answer here today is that I’m a coach, I’m a coordinator, I’m specifically math, but how do I get more principles to come on board and take ownership so that we can evaluate them at, this level three on the spectrum? but let’s paint the picture first.

Yvette Lehman: feel like when I think about this level three where the administrator is actively partnering, that means they are getting into classrooms and they’re observing. They’re doing walkthroughs, they’re participating in lessons, they’re going to their bright spot teachers in their school and they’re saying, we’re trying to implement this particular strategy or strengthen this content. Can I come in to observe a lesson? want to notice a name.

what you’re doing. They’re showing up to PLCs and they’re doing the work, they’re doing the math, they’re sitting with their teachers and particularly in elementary, you know, I can see this being maybe more accessible than if I’m a secondary or high school principal and I’m trying to, you know, jump into a math PLC. We often talk to about how the administrator doesn’t need to be a content expert. They just need to be a learner.

They need to support collaboration. They need to empower and inspire and elevate the great work that’s happening in their building in order to do that. To even know who your bright spots are or who your expert teachers are that you can tap on, you have to be in their classrooms.

Kyle Pearce: Hmm. I think it’s so I’m so happy you’d mention it because I think one of the biggest fears that leadership at all levels has is needing to be like the head of the group. And that’s actually not the case here at all. That’s not what we’re talking about ownership and accountability. It’s about helping the team see that there is a goal and we’re going to work towards it collaboratively. And, you know, if I come in and I actually sort of

feel or I’m acting as though I have these answers. That’s where I think we actually get knocked down the continuum a little bit because now it’s sort of like imposing, right? We start to come in with the idea of what the goal is versus us emerging that goal as a team, right? There’s so much work to do in mathematics. I might think we should do this thing and the entire staff might have a different opinion of that and that might be a better place for us to start. So again, it’s about

helping to lead that team and not necessarily come with the answers, but rather with sort of the opportunity for them to feel confident and feel like they’re owning the goal with the actual administrator. And I think you’re making it very clear here that if I’m not around is kind of the word I’m gonna use. Like if I’m as an administrator, I’m not around when math is happening. So we don’t need you to go through with formal checklists every day and this and that and the next thing. It’s like, you gotta just know, like you have to have a…

of what’s happening around the school and in the classroom so that we have a general sense of where are we now and what are the low-hanging fruits that maybe we might all be able to work towards together as a team.

Jon Orr: Yeah, some of the best experiences I had as a practicing classroom teacher is in those PLCs specifically when we were doing lesson study. there was a specific time where in the beginning we were doing lesson study where our administrator was actively involved in planning lessons, actively involved in observing those lessons and taking ownership of what we were crafting in there and specifically moving towards different instructional practices that we were focused on.

Those were impactful things and built community, built culture, know, share. Exactly. All of a sudden, like it was, it was easier to like, you know, say hi on the hallway to a person. Like it’s just, the team just became more cohesive because of that work. And then there was a time later, like a few years later where we still did lesson study, but the principal didn’t show up anymore. And it was a noticeably different experience that was happening in that room.

not to say that we weren’t committed to what the work was happening, but it was definitely like, you know, we’re moving this way, but then the principal didn’t have like the accountability component of what we were trying to do. And they were missing that. And all of sudden they lost track of what was happening specifically improvement wise in the school to help us have the right pressure, but also the right support to keep moving forward in the right places. Right? Like that’s the important component here is that

you’ve got this person who’s kind of like, I’m a little bit of an accountability partner. I’m a learning partner too, but I’m a little bit of an accountability partner that kind of is going to help us steer towards some of the goals that we’re working towards.

Yvette Lehman: leads us to our full implementation. Now, this descriptor is a little wordy. I know, I feel like I need to make it more concise. So I’m going to read it in, I’m going to chunk it for our listeners here and work on, you know, being more concise with our language here. so imagine if you have, you know, a really effective school level leader engaged in math improvement, the administrator leads a school wide focus on math.

They actively partner with the coach and the staff to observe instruction and participate in learning. They ensure alignment with school goals, hold the team accountable, and they can speak confidently about the progress and share wins with the school community and other district leaders.

Jon Orr: I like it. I like it. I think you painted a clear picture there. And I think, you know, when we think about our own administrators or we think about the administrators we’re working with, we, you know, can we say that? Can we look, you know, can we identify key people that are exhibiting those behaviors? Now, they might be doing that in other content areas, maybe not math. maybe that’s just a shift that has to happen if we want to make math a priority in our school is

is transitioning the already good behaviors and the already good practices you’re already doing specifically in terms of leadership over to math. But I think that’s a clear picture. I’m wondering, and I’m going throw this at Kyle. Ooh, I’m putting you on the spot. How do we help a leader who’s so busy to make that priority? Because that is the crux here. We can paint the pathway.

because the people listening are likely not administrators, they’re math coaches, coordinators, maybe school leaders who are department chairs, or just like they’re just classroom leaders who are looking to strengthen what they’re doing. And they know their principles somewhere on the spectrum. Like, how do I, how do I like, is it my place to do that? Is it someone else’s job? Like, am I helpless in this situation, knowing that an administrator is an administrator and I’m not an administrator?

Kyle Pearce: You know, it’s funny that you’re giving me this because I feel like I should be asking you because this is how you actually operate and you’re, you’re very good at this, John. And, and what it is in my opinion is actually carving out a very specific amount of time, even if it’s a very small amount and dedicating that time and I would say starting small, like very small. if, if for example, you might be listening, you’re an administrator right now and you’re going shoot,

You know, this is the one negative of doing this type of episode, right? People start to like maybe feel bad about themselves, like I’m doing it all wrong and that’s not the intent here at all. It’s to go, shoot, I haven’t been making this a priority. Why? Because I’m wearing a hat that it’s as busy as you want it to be. Like the reality is, is that if there is a moment in time where you are available in a building as an administrator, as a leader,

you are your time is going to get monopolized. So therefore, it’s like if you could go to your calendar and you were to dedicate a certain chunk of time, like it could be as simple as 20 minutes right after let’s say it’s announcements in the morning and for that first 20 minutes, you are going to go and observe in a classroom or go and be a part of a classroom and everything else must wait unless the school is on fire.

unless there is an ambulance coming, unless there is something where no one else in this building could hold it off for you for 20 minutes. There’s a way for you to go, I’m going to do this work and I’m going to do it little by little to get closer and closer. And you think about how that would compound, right? And we’re all math teachers here. We all love math and compound interests. It’s all about compounding, right? So we start with something small.

And I would say by dedicating that time in your calendar and saying, this is time that I am going to block out and I will deal with all the phone calls afterwards and all of those emergencies that supposedly could not wait. Because if you do it the other way around, you will never find the time, right? You will never find the time. The time will always be gone and you’re going to get to the end of another day. It’s going to be 5 PM and you’re going, shoot, I never made it.

into a math classroom today, or I never made it around the school to get a pulse of what’s going on when we could have very easily, and I promise you, you’d probably still leave the school at the same time if you do it the other way around. And maybe one of those so-called emergencies weren’t as, you know, urgent as maybe we all thought or the people in the building thought. So that’s my take. Yvette, what’s your thought? How do people build this into their, into their routine?

Yvette Lehman: Well, I think you did a really great job at painting the picture for administrators who are looking to prioritize this work. I think we need to do an entire episode on having difficult coaching conversations with people who are in positions of authority. So we often talk about coaching conversations with, if I’m a coach and I’m working with a teacher who is a colleague, but how do we coach up?

So let’s schedule that for our next leader meeting. We’re going to have an entire call about coaching up. Yes, we’re going to do a coaching out conversation because I think that is different, right? There’s different ways to, if I’m the coach and I know that the principal has not taken an active role and I want to, to support that change, what does that coaching conversation sound like? What are the moves we can make as the coach to support? the leader in taking shared ownership of this work. So next Thursday, tune in.

Kyle Pearce: man, I got a funny feeling that we’re going to have some citations for Jim Strachan because I don’t know. I’ve got some ideas. I feel like I know what he might say. And I’m going to bring that into the episode. We might even email him today and see what his thoughts are.

Jon Orr: Okay, folks, you heard it. Folks, heard it here, check in next week as we, today we unpack specifically what does it look like on the spectrum for an administrator who is supporting math instruction or math goals and from one end of the spectrum all the way to the other. So we painted the picture, now we’re gonna address, like Yvette said, like Kyle said, how do we help that person make those priorities and do the behaviors that Kyle outlined? It’s like, how do we,

create it and support and nudge our own administrators to kind of make those priorities. So check in next time. That’s what we’re going to be diving into. If you do want a copy of the continuum, the rubric, the assessment here that we used, there is a full version on the show notes page. So click in there, which is in your app. Scroll down, go to the more tab or the description, find that link.

it’ll take you to that assessment and you can get download a copy for you. Okay, we’ll talk soon. See everybody.

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