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What happens when two math teachers throw out homework, redefine grading and assessment, and make student growth the heart of every math lesson?

Too many classrooms are dominated by points, pressure, and compliance. But what if your students actually chased learning—without sacrificing test scores or accountability? In this episode, Keenan Clark and Jake Towers join Jon Orr to reveal how they transformed their math classrooms by replacing traditional grading and homework with a feedback-rich, skills-based assessment system. The result? More engagement, better relationships, and soaring standardized test results.

Listen in to discover:

• How eliminating homework and embracing flexible assessment led to deeper learning and less stress
• The assessment shift that helped raise AP Calculus pass rates from 41% to over 80%
• Why building student-teacher relationships through weekly feedback conversations became the secret to sustained motivation

If you’re ready to ditch the points race and start fueling real learning, hit play now.

Attention District Math Leaders:

Visit Keenan and Jake’s website: skillsbasedclassroom.com

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Looking to supplement your curriculum with problem based lessons and units? Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Jon Orr:
Hey there Keenan and Jake. Welcome to the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. We are excited to dig in. I know that we’ve had this on the calendar. We moved the date a couple times and we were eager to hear your story. And you know, when you reached out to us to talk about, your influence that you’ve had in the classroom and where that influence came from as a story, we thought this is a great story to share with the Making Math Moments That Matter community. So let’s get into it guys. Keenan, Jake.

Keenan Clark:
you

Jon Orr:
Jake, let’s start with you. Where are coming from? What’s your teaching role? Give us a little snapshot of Jake Towers.

Jake Towers:
Yeah, so I’m Jake Towers and I’m from Carterville, Illinois. I’ve been teaching here for seven years. Before that, I student taught actually for Keenan. So it really worked out. Yeah, I’ve been with them a while and I’m teaching algebra one, which is our freshman level math course at Carterville High School and algebra two, which is primarily juniors at Carterville High School.

Jon Orr:
Great.

Jon Orr:
Got it, got it, thanks. Keenan.

Keenan Clark:
Yeah, I’m in year 27. Again, I’m Kenan Clark. I teach next door to Jake. He did his practicum for me. Actually, coincidentally, his dad was my high school baseball coach a long time ago.

Jon Orr:
Man, you guys got this connection happening, it’s cyclical, it’s a cyclical connection.

Jake Towers:
Mm-hmm meant to be meant to be

Keenan Clark:
So I taught for five years at Carterville Junior High. I was the eighth grade math teacher, taught some basic algebra and some eighth grade math, moved to the high school. And since then I’ve been teaching everything from geometry through calculus. think I’ve had calculus now for 20 some odd years. I did actually take a little bypass out of teaching. I went into administration for two years. I was an assistant principal at a four, five, six building. I had a great experience, really, really liked it. But what it did is it kind of reignited my passion for teaching.

Jon Orr:
Hmm.

Keenan Clark:
I saw some great things in the classroom and thought I could do things a little bit different. you know, when you look at teaching from the distance that I was at as an administrator, then you really feel like you can make some positive changes if you ever had a chance to do it again. Just so happened my old position opened back up, same classroom, same classes. And here I am back in Cardiff High School teaching Algebra II and AP Calculus.

Jon Orr:
Got it, got it. Yeah, that’s, we’ll dig, well, I think we’ll dig into that, you know, that journey a little bit, a little bit down the road here. But I do want, you know, to give you guys a chance to talk about your math moments, this moment that has influenced you about math education, your math class. Like we all get this image of math class when we say, when we say math class, it’s like, it’s just like burned into your brain that what this could be or what this is, and it usually has some sort of impact that sticks with you, you know, all these years.

Keenan, what would you say is like your math moment? So when I say math class, like what is popping into your mind as this kind of stick with you all these years moment?

Keenan Clark:
feel like my math journey began in a positive direction when I was in junior high. Our high school math teacher, had a math team at the high school. They were very successful. My brothers were math people at school. the high school math teacher came down and would always spend his prep period teaching eighth grade math to some of the advanced students. And I just, was lucky enough to be enrolled in that. And it was a fantastic experience. Very charismatic teacher, loved the kids, loved teaching, loved…

Jon Orr:
Mm-hmm.

Keenan Clark:
challenging us in a lot of different ways and so it just kind of ignited a passion for math for me. I had his classes for the next four years, his name’s Ron Nagradsky. He retired from teaching and then ended up going into working at the university level. He mentored Jake when Jake was at the university so there was another connection there that we had. that was it. When I was in junior high I had a fantastic teacher. I got to work with him.

Jon Orr:
Hmm. Great.

Keenan Clark:
and he still comes in and he does some guest lecturing for my classes from time to time. I let him come in talk to my Cal classes every year. So I want my students to have that same experience that I had to get to see and listen to this fantastic, charismatic teacher.

Jon Orr:
Hmm. Great.

Jon Orr:
Was it the charisma that you kind of like grasp to and then is that what you’re trying to do in your classes now? Is that like that transition moment? Like oftentimes our math moments influence us either positive or negatively, which then have a, because that’s such an impactful moment for us, completely influences us what we do in our classrooms. So is that like, is it the charisma that you’re now transferring because that was an impactful moment or is it something else about what?

Keenan Clark:
I feel like a lot of it was the personality, the relationships, just being able to build the relationships. Everybody liked him, he was funny, he talked to us like we were human beings and not like we were robots that he was trying to train. It was a very conversational way for him to teach and I felt like that was positive for me, that’s what I needed. I feel like my students feel that way and so I try to channel that through my teaching from time to time.

Jon Orr:
Mm-hmm.

Keenan Clark:
the details of instruction and some of the science mechanics of it but if you don’t have a strong relationship with your students you’re not going to be very successful.

Jon Orr:
Yeah, yeah. I, you know, like something that kind of sticks out to me is, you know, I read, we read the book, Power of Moments a number of years ago. And part of the power of moments, we talked about this in one of our podcasts and sometimes, or one of our podcasts, but also one of our webinars. We’ve talked about it some of our live sessions, is the power, like some moments stick with us longer than others because what happens is someone or something here broke the script of like, what is traditional? Like, what is the normal?

And I’m curious, just to dig a little bit further here is like the relationships that were built with those teachers, did that feel like it broke the script and that’s why it had that impact on you? And like all the other math teachers you had weren’t that influence because it wasn’t the same type of relationship? Like I’m curious about like that, what was sticking out to you as maybe different and that’s why it stuck with you all these years.

Keenan Clark:
I mean it may seem trivial but I remember walking into class one day and we had an exam in class and one of the questions on the exam was a story problem and it was a I don’t specifically remember the details of it but my name was in the story problem so at some point in time he had integrated me and one of my friends and we were in some sort sort of caper and trying to get out of it and the the problem was revolving around us but it was not uncommon for that to be the case that…

Jon Orr:
Hahaha.

Keenan Clark:
He would integrate problems in class that involved the students and involved us personally and you just felt like you wanted to perform well, perform better for someone who had that kind of interest in knowing who you were and integrating you into the class.

Jon Orr:
Right, and that must have been different than the rest of the experiences you’ve had. Right?

Keenan Clark:
Yes, absolutely. you know, in the past everything was so curriculum based and here’s the next page of the book and here’s the next… We never even had a textbook. Like in his class it was you come in and we’re going to talk about what we need to know next. And it was… it didn’t feel so regimented as some of the math or other classes that I would have had in the past.

Jon Orr:
Yeah, yeah. And it goes to like, obviously, this is a testament to how we have impact on people based off what we’re doing in our classrooms. And things stick with people long after we think that that impact is there. And it matters. And it matters when we’re not making those connections with our students, because you fade away. You’re not part of Kenan’s memory right now. Those teachers who weren’t.

you know, who weren’t engaging as this individual. Maybe they were for other reasons, but not specifically for math class. Jake, math moment, you’re up.

Jake Towers:
Yeah, my math moment, I had great math teachers growing up, but my freshman year I met Forrest Morland, who was a math teacher at my high school for years. I was actually part of his last three years of teaching before he retired. And he just made, we worked bell to bell, but he was so laid back. He was goofy. He made everything fun. made, everyone in the room was having a great time when they walked in his door. And it might’ve been the best part of their day. And he just made us all feel like we were able to do the math.

Jon Orr:
Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. Again, just, just, it just, grew up those, those relationships, you know, completely matter and have, you know, I think a lot of us, you know, some, you know, my math moment, I don’t, was not about an individual. It was just about an experience. But I think, you know, when I, we ask people about those math moments, they’re all, most of them are tied to individuals. And we’ve got that, you know, going on here. Jake, how does, how does that influence what you’re doing in the classroom now?

Keenan Clark:
Mm-hmm.

Jake Towers:
He was able to build relationships with every student in the room and I think I try to carry that on. Try to make sure every student is seen, try to make sure every student knows that I care about their growth, not just in my math class but overall and just trying to make math fun. Try to make fun, have a great time and try to make the class the best part of their day.

Jon Orr:
Got it. Awesome. Yeah, that was one of my goals as well for kids that walked into my math class because I spent a good chunk of my career, like I guess half my day was usually working with students who were told they were bad at math or hated math. The other half was doing what you said, Keenan, is teaching calculus, teaching what we called it advanced functions, which is pre-calculus here. That was the other half of my day. splitting my time between those two vastly different kind of groups.

You know, allowed me to kind of open up what really matters in math class. Guys, let’s unpack some story here because you, in your messaging to us, you’ve had some significant success in what you’re doing in your classrooms. I’ll let you guys kind of pick on who wants to kind of talk about that success. Let’s talk about the current success and then let’s reverse engineer it. Let’s unpack where this journey came from and then where it, how it got to where we are now.

So let’s talk, give me one, give me two successes you feel like are moving the needle or you’ve got a needle that has moved and you wanna talk about it, but I’ll let you guys decide on who wants to start with a current huge success that you’re having in your classrooms.

Keenan Clark:
Okay.

Keenan Clark:
So when we revamped what we were doing in our classroom, we did a lot of it for ourselves. It would make us feel like we were having a better impact with doing that. And I know that our relationships with the students have improved greatly. But a lot of times, whether we agree with it or not, success is marked by how well you’re performing on your standardized tests and how well you have compared to other schools. And over the last…

Jon Orr:
Mm.

Keenan Clark:
three years, our scores have, as far as our SAT scores, which is our standard test at the high school, it’s about to change, but our scores have been above the state average at Cardiff High School for a long time. And now our, that gap is growing. Like we’re really, we’re exceeding the state by more and more every year it seems. We feel like that’s in part a byproduct of us, obviously a big part of it is the students and the students work ethic and then buying into what’s going on at our school.

Jon Orr:
Hmm.

Keenan Clark:
our AP scores in my AP Cop class. Before I implemented our new system in the AP class, I think we had maybe 41 % of our students scored a three or higher that year, which I did not feel like was an acceptable level. I felt like I had failed them. And so we implemented this into the advanced students as well. Like our AP Cop students, that’s the highest level of math. That’s our capstone class at our district.

Jon Orr:
Mm-hmm.

Keenan Clark:
Last year was my first year of implementing it and I think we had 82, 81, 82 % of our students scored a three year higher. Like our scores were really, really good. And for a school our size to have 20, over 20 students pass the AP Calc exam and we only have 600 students in our school, that’s a really big accomplishment for us. So those are some of the tangible things that we see, but you know, as far as the relationships with the kids and how it’s growing with the parents, I can let perhaps Jake speak to that. Like he’s had some…

Jon Orr:
Mm-hmm.

Keenan Clark:
great experiences. If you’re less than 10 years of teaching and we’re having no parent issues and no administrative issues and students are happy with what’s going on, that speaks a lot too. So he could probably add into a little bit more on how that worked out in the classroom.

Jon Orr:
Mm-hmm.

Jake Towers:
Yeah, so we made this change three years ago and we’re kind of known as the no homework guys in our high school. We don’t give math homework and the students and parents, the students really like that. The parents don’t believe them when they go home and tell them. But we’ve really changed the way we assess students and we like to give a lot of retake opportunities for any chapter. We call them our chapter skills now, but we let…

Jon Orr:
Hmm.

Jake Towers:
For example, chapter one’s in August, that’s when we start it. You can improve that grade retaking assessments up until the week before the final exam. So parents have really liked that opportunity for their children to be able to learn at their pace and then be able to retake assessments after getting feedback from us or talking to us one-on-one or just working at home if they want. And the students just see like the stress has gone away in our classroom. There’s, you know,…

Jon Orr:
Mm-hmm.

Jake Towers:
We’ve shortened our assessments to four questions and they know that when they take an assessment, might not have their best day, but they’re able to show growth and retake it and show us and prove to us they’ve mastered certain skills.

Jon Orr:
You know, like, and I think when someone hears that too, it’s like no homework or change our assessment to allow retesting. Somebody might even argue to say like, okay, well, if you’re adding, if you’re allowing retesting, you’re not doing homework, and the kids are getting good grades in class, how does that transfer? But obviously, standardized test results have changed. So there is something that’s comparable across, because I think a big argument…

Other schools, other districts, probably other teachers have is like, yeah, but you’re probably assessing too easy or yeah, but you know, like, like those aren’t my kids, you know? And so, so there’s something that’s transferring there. What, what do you believe is the major difference that’s happened because of some of the shifts in probably classroom structure you’ve had, but also it sounds like assessment assessment has been a major shift for the work that the two of you are doing done.

Keenan Clark:
The biggest shift that I have noticed is that we have taken away this race for points to get a better grade in class. We’ve taken that aspect out, we’ve removed the compliance from basically all of what we do, and now the kids are kind of racing to the learning. When we shift the focus back on the learning, that made all the difference in the world. So the grades are going up and the scores are going up because the kids are holding themselves more accountable for their own learning in class.

Jon Orr:
Hmm.

Keenan Clark:
And that sounds like, well, like you said, my kids won’t do that. Or that’s just a few kids at a certain school that’s always performed pretty well anyway. But we have a neighboring district that we’ve been working with for about a year and a half, two years now. they had low scores. They were probably getting close to being on academic probation. They were getting about 5 % of their students that were meeting or exceeding state standards, which obviously that’s around one out of every 20 students.

Jon Orr:
Hmm.

Keenan Clark:
two years inside of our system, like they completely adopted it. They are now at about 17%. Is that right, Jake?

Jake Towers:
Yeah, like 15 to 17, like maybe, yeah, in between there.

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