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Are you a math leader struggling to create meaningful math improvement plans that actually make a difference in your schools?

In this episode of the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast, we sit down with Blaine McInosh, a Divisional Mathematics Support Teacher from the Winnipeg School Division who has partnered with our District Improvement Program. We unpack Blaine’s journey to uncover how to move beyond surface-level plans and create authentic, sustainable growth in math classrooms. 

Whether you’re a math coach, math coordinator, or principal, if you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by improvement goals or unsure where to start, this conversation will resonate with you.

• Discover how to shift from checklist-driven plans to purposeful, goal-oriented strategies that empower both teachers and leaders.
• Learn the power of asking “why” five times to uncover the root cause of challenges in your math programs.
• Gain actionable insights on fostering a growth mindset among educators while building a culture of continuous improvement without the pressure of perfection.

Hit play now to learn how Blaine’s approach to math leadership can help you transform your school’s improvement efforts into meaningful, lasting change.

Resources:

• Register for the Make Math Moments Virtual Summit
• Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

Attention District Math Leaders:

Not sure what matters most when designing math improvement plans? Take this assessment and get a free customized report: https://makemathmoments.com/grow/ 

Ready to design your math improvement plan with guidance, support and using structure? Learn how to follow our 4 stage process. https://growyourmathprogram.com 

Looking to supplement your curriculum with problem based lessons and units? Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

Episode Summary:

Blaine’s Role and “Math Moment

Blaine, a Divisional Mathematics Support Teacher at Winnipeg School Division, discussed his role and experiences. He shared that his role involves working with principals, teachers, department heads, and a team of mathematics support teachers. When asked about his “math moment” as a leader, Blaine reflected on a conversation with his principal, Betty Mueller, from his first year of teaching. She advised him to ask “why” five times to understand the root cause of a situation, which he found helpful in determining his central aim and considering various possibilities.

Understanding Purpose and Prioritizing Needs

Brian McIntosh and Jon discussed the importance of understanding the purpose and goals of their work, rather than rushing into tasks. Brian emphasized the need to prioritize the needs of others, particularly in support roles, and to remind oneself of this focus. Jon agreed, highlighting the importance of understanding the ‘why’ behind their work and ensuring that resources are aligned with their goals. They both agreed that this approach is crucial for effective decision-making and resource allocation.

Focusing on People in Mathematics

In the meeting, Blaine and Jon discussed the importance of understanding the ‘why’ behind their actions and decisions, particularly in the context of teaching and learning mathematics. They emphasized the need to focus on the people they support rather than themselves, and to continually question and improve their methods. Blaine shared that this approach has evolved over time, from initially focusing on fixing perceived problems to now recognizing the importance of individual improvement. They agreed on the need to revisit guiding principles and documents, such as ‘The Pillars of Teaching and Learning 

Mathematics’ and ‘Effective Mathematics Teaching Practices’, to ensure alignment with their core objectives.

Focusing on Sustainable Continuous Improvement

Bryan McIntosh and Jon discussed the importance of focusing on specific goals for improvement, rather than being swayed by external expectations or pressures. They emphasized the need for a sustainable model of continuous improvement, where individuals or teams choose a goal, work towards it, and then repeat the process. They also highlighted the need to shift the mindset from viewing plans as mere documents to recognizing them as tools for intentional action. Bryan shared an experience where he encouraged a group to view their data and challenges as their own, rather than being controlled by external authorities. The conversation concluded with the importance of celebrating effort and progress, even if the outcome is not a ‘win’.

Evolution of School Improvement Strategies

In the meeting, Blaine and JON discussed the evolution of school improvement strategies. They acknowledged that the past approach, which focused on improving individual performance, was sometimes perceived as heavy-handed and insulting. They agreed that the current context, influenced by Covid and technological advancements, requires a shift in focus towards addressing the evolving context and improving teaching methods. The conversation also touched on the importance of a growth mindset and planning for improvement in mathematics, leadership, and teaching. The main focus of Blaine’s work has been on adding an element of mathematics leadership to their initiatives over the past couple of years.

Math Leaders’ Role and Focus

The discussion revolved around the role and focus of mathematics leaders in supporting math education. The speakers debated the importance of understanding basic structures of mathematics and content knowledge for leaders, even if they are not experts. They also discussed the significance of school math plans and the ability of schools to make decisions about their goals. The conversation concluded with advice for leaders, emphasizing the impact of showing oneself as a learner and the importance of understanding key teaching practices.

Understanding Team Needs for Improvement

Blaine McIntosh and Jon discussed the importance of understanding the context and needs of their team members to facilitate effective conversations and planning for improvement. Blaine emphasized the value of these conversations in helping team members see actionable next steps and realistic objectives. Jon expressed his appreciation for their collaboration and looked forward to their continued work together. The conversation also touched on the importance of continuous improvement and adapting to changing contexts.

Teaching Methodologies in Math and Other Subjects

Jon and Blaine discussed the differences in teaching methodologies between various subjects, particularly math and other core subjects. Jon suggested that math teachers might be more resistant to change due to the perceived stability of their subject matter, while other subjects like geography and English might be more adaptable to changing contexts. Blaine agreed, noting that while the content of math has remained largely the same, the pedagogical approaches have evolved, while other subjects might not have undergone the same level of change. They both acknowledged the need for a shift in teaching methodologies across all subjects.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Hey there, Blaine, welcome to the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. This is, I’m gonna say, this is a long time coming. know, like we’ve been chatting and working together for a few years now, and it’s exciting to kind of have you here, but let everybody else know, like where are you both coming from, and what’s your current role in education? Hi. I’m Blaine. I’ve been working with Winnipeg School Division for the bulk of my career.

in Winnipeg, Manitoba. And so my official title right now is, what is it now, Divisional Mathematics Support Teacher. And that’s kind of evolved, I suppose, out of various titles over the last few years. And so my current role has been pretty similar for the last five or so years. And my role, I guess, is in part, just helping be, it’s a partial consultant role, but it’s also

Jon Orr (04:56.589)

partial kind of mentor coach role. I work with principals and teachers, but also work with a team of department heads. And we also have a team of mathematics support teachers. And so I also do some work with them as well. Awesome. Now we ask everyone on the podcast same question, which is your math moment. You know, when we think about like, when we say math class and you think back to like this thing that sticks with you, but I’m going to put a spin on this for you. So I’m going to say like,

If you think about like, I don’t know, like a leader math moment. So because you’re in a leadership role, because you’re supporting teachers, uh, because you’re doing some of the guiding around what your math improvement goals for the year, you know, the year are at each school or the district level. If I say a math moment, but you think about what you’ve been doing for the last five years is what comes to mind, like give us like something that continues to pop in your, in your mind to say like a math moment around leadership. Um,

That’s interesting. I’ve been kind of thinking about that type of question and I guess not just as a specifically a leadership question and the way that you’ve answered it, but I guess I was reflecting on just some of the other work that I was doing. I had a flashback the other day to my first year of teaching and I remember having a conversation with my principal, Betty Mueller, who was also had been my grade seven English teacher as well.

And so I was 22 at the time and certainly probably a little more brash than I needed to be. And one of the, in our dialogue, I don’t know the author she was quoting, but in our conversation, she just mentioned like, you have to ask yourself why five times. it was this idea that like, why do you need that? But why do need that? why do you need that? And it kind of erased all the,

you know, to try to get at the root cause of something or what your central aim was. And then once that was kind of determined, a lot of possibilities could open up all the things that you thought you should do, or maybe in fact, not the things that you should be doing. And so that kind of sticks with me, I guess, in my in the support as far as

Jon Orr (07:20.499)

really trying to be clear about what we’re after and not rushing to do stuff, but rather know what we’re aiming for. And I guess similarly, I don’t know if this applies to direct answer to your leadership question, but I suppose in terms of the support question is, and again, I don’t know if it’s something, it must be something that I heard at some point. It’s certainly something that I’ve said, especially in trying to support people who

provide support for others is just blurring. It’s not about you, meaning you as the support person, but you’re there to provide for someone else. And their needs are maybe, you know, your agenda doesn’t matter nearly as much as what their agenda does. And so, it’s important for you to try to make sure you remind yourself of that.

Those are two big ones. Your why five times reminds me of, think it was, it’s the same idea, but it was like, you say, so that five times, right? It’s like, so I’m gonna do that. So that I will do that. And then like, well, so that like, you’re getting at the real root cause of the work that you’re trying to do. which is fundamental to the work you’re actually doing, right? It’s like, we have to really know.

what we’re working towards. And if we don’t, well, why are we doing that? Like why are we working on that? I remember we were talking last year, a few months ago, and this conversation stuck with me when we were talking about resources. It’s like, we’re using resources or are we using the resources to support the why? Because it’s like, are we choosing, the mentality was like, the conversations have to be around

we have these resources, we have these resources, we have these resources as the focal point. And you were like, we need to focus on the why. let’s start with the what we’re after first and then decide if the resources make sense to get there. For sure, for sure. And I think that that’s a question that we frequently cycle back to here. And by here, I mean the division at large, but also any smaller conversations that we have as well.

Jon Orr (09:41.933)

particularly when we talk about resources are so many resources are just good. Like they are really good if, but you know, on how they are are being used. so for us, we always try to go back to wherever possible, just back to the why why why aspect of what what are your key guiding, you know, principles, documents, whatever. And for us, we really try to go back to

In Manitoba, we have a fantastic document called the Pillars of Teaching and Learning Mathematics. we also have, of course, wherever we can refer back to… That also is part of the MCTM, has their effective mathematics teaching practices. So we try to go back to that as often as we can. This is our central aim. And there are many avenues, I suppose, by which we can

get there are also sub that. But it is an interesting dance, I suppose, where we want to make sure that that’s at the forefront, but we also want to make sure that that’s not just, you know, luff, guess that we just we say the words, but it means nothing or else. And you and I also had some conversations about the fact that, say, the principles to actions document now is like a decade old.

And yet, and yet it’s not right. Right. Exactly. So, you know, there’s, there’s an ability to keep reminding ourselves going back to, and, also having to go through the process of like, it’s, we’re very familiar with it, but you know, other people are still seeing it for the first time and that sort of thing. And so what, what are the, trying to go to, what are the initial steps all the time?

potentially in any particular meeting so that it can be useful, but also that people can see a need for it, too, that it’s not just like, and they have this thing and they bring it in and they do whatever that there is. Which, again, how can we go back to what our particular why is involved? Yeah. Sounds like you had said

Jon Orr (12:05.399)

there’s two kind of two moments there, but two guiding almost principles is, ask the why five times, like get to the root, the root of what we’re really doing. And then you said that it needs to be about the people you’re supporting and not yourself. have to take ego out of this to do the real good work. And my wonder for you is like, is that something you always had in this role or is it something that’s like been developed? Like take us back to go like, what did

What did, you know, a number of years ago when you first got into this leadership role, like what, what was like going through your mind there and then the transformational to where you are now? that’s an interesting question. I think that the, the Y Y Y part has always really stuck with me. I try, I’ve always been, fairly, I’ll say goal oriented in any form of

support or initiative that we try to, that we consider that we have particular objectives that we’re after and so we’re doing it as opposed to here’s the thing, let’s go do it. I don’t really believe there’s any purpose in that kind of approach. having a reason for things I think has always been present. I think the

for lack of a better place, it’s not about you, but I do think that when I started this job, I was probably more a person that was looking at it as, I know all these things that are wrong. And these are all these things that I, we can just fix it if everyone does these things. And that I think is certainly,

It’s changed. will say that it’s not like there are elements of it that are I won’t pretend that that’s entirely gone. I think though that my view of what what the everything is that everyone can do is just different now. And so by that, just so it doesn’t sound like a complete egomaniac there is the idea that I do think that the thing that everyone can be doing is trying to improve.

Jon Orr (14:25.951)

And I’m not really quite so concerned anymore with what they’re working on as far as the specific thing that they’re trying to improve. And so a lot of the work over the last, especially the last couple of years is trying to sort of refine. I think that like our conversations are often about this, just the nature of what say a school math plan can look like, or regardless of what its scope is that you’re thinking about more what are

What is your goal that you’re after? What is the one little thing that maybe you’re, and you know, it could be something very small. It could be something medium. It could be large. And, and I’m not really so concerned anymore about the what specifically that people have decided so much as what are the things that we can do to support people in trying to achieve whatever that goal happens to be. No, think that is a huge, a way, realize realization that

that I think many people in our leadership roles have, you know.

I’m not going to say have to, like would be great to come to that realization. I think, because I think you’re right. It’s in a way it’s like, we were talking with another district about the goals that they wanted to choose. And it’s, and it’s almost like it, in a way people want to know what’s the best goal. Like what’s the best thing I should be focusing on right now as a whole district. in a way it’s like, it, in way it doesn’t really matter. What really, what really matters is you choose something and you get started on the process.

the process of this is the thing I want to make impact on and here’s how I think I’m gonna make impact on and here’s how I know I’ll make impact on it. And that is the, in practicing that as a leader and supporting teachers to also implement that same idea is really the long-term gain that we have to make because that’s the sustainable model because initiatives, new ideas, new research is going to come and it’s gonna go.

Jon Orr (16:29.279)

And some of these things will stick around, but I think I feel like the, long-term game is, the practice of picking something, working on it, seeing if you got better on it, and then doing that again. And that cycle is really what we need to instill in our schools, in our teachers, in our districts of, of, and that’s how we’re going to get, the improvement. And it sounds like that’s what you’ve been strengthening with the, you know, the people that you’re supporting is going, let’s pick something and then let’s work towards.

gaining ground on that something, but I don’t really care what you really pick. Yeah. And I think with some of that too, is this idea that, like I’m sure everyone, every listener has probably had this experience where they’ve been part of a team that had to make up a plan for improvement of some sort. it becomes this form that you do and then you ignore and then you revisit at the end to pretend that you did something on it. And the entire process was like,

It was just a piece of paper. It wasn’t anything else. And so we’ve been working at how can we support that type of thinking, but for people to not view it even as that there is a piece of paper. I mean, we have a piece of paper to help with the thinking, but the idea is that I don’t care. This isn’t about creating a document. It’s not about creating this encyclopedia of work. It’s the people that we’re trying to

All schools, all teachers are in a situation where they recognize there are some of things that they are being challenged by or would like to work on or improve. And that all these plans are supposed to be is just that you’re intentionally addressing them. That’s it. Nothing more. No outside thing. I remember I had a session I ran with a lot of high school folks. There were principals there and

department heads and teachers. they were, one of the things we were looking at was grade 12 data. And a question got asked that was, you know, what are they, as in big capital quotations, the division wanting us to do or saying about our results. like, like you’re looking to this other, I don’t know,

Jon Orr (18:55.499)

upper management thing, either as an authority or someone who is cracking some discipline down on their workers or things like that. And trying to just get people to realize like, there is no them. Like there is no person looking down on you at all. Like we have this and it’s ours. Like it’s ours to choose what we do with. And so sometimes I try to view that as a hopefully empowering liberating moment. I’m not sure necessarily.

mistaken, but like, there is no person walking down the hallway wondering specifically what’s, you know, how is this thing being addressed? mean, we do talk about how that can be supported in a positive way, obviously, that there are people that are here to help and support and make sure that there’s some guidance in that respect. But as far as everything else, like, you have all the information and when we provide, you know, say it’s for us, we were looking at

different data we got from our provincial exams compared to our coursework marks and things like that. It was then then to us, up to us collectively and individually to think about what do we want to do if anything with this or is this important or not and why. And so in a room that size, it’s nice because there’s lots of different perspectives about what some possible moves are. But I think in any situation that people have

They have information about their context and they are perceiving some things that they wish were different in some way. And so we try to look at, okay, what parts of this are under our control? Yes, we’ve got all this on the table about all the things that are possible factors and there are many things that are beyond our control, absolutely. And so within our particular locus of control, what is our next move?

And then let’s try that. Let’s see how that goes. And, and for it to be okay, that the thing that we try flops, try to emphasize that a lot is just like, the win is that we tried to do something to address it when we’re stuck in a potential, you know, the stagnation or, and certainly some trying to set it up so that we can have some quick wins is something that’s nice to do.

Jon Orr (21:23.341)

But also to just celebrate the fact that like, you know, effort was taken here to address our situation. That is our win. And I think another thing that I really try to get at too is, and maybe COVID helped with this as a realization. I don’t know. But this idea that, I’m sorry, I lost my train of thought on that.

I said COVID was maybe COVID helped you with this. Right. Sorry. One second. I’ll get it.

Jon Orr (22:08.077)

All good, take your time.

Jon Orr (22:16.394)

Aw man.

Jon Orr (22:24.269)

I’m come back to you later, what do think? Just one second, I feel like it’s right there.

Jon Orr (22:36.371)

yeah, I got.

Jon Orr (22:43.661)

Okay, I think that COVID did help with this in some way where when we look at school improvement in the not so good version of it where it is like say the form that you fill out and it doesn’t go anywhere. We sometimes feel like there’s this, sometimes you do feel like there’s this whip being cracked about like you have to improve, you have to improve, you have to improve. And then it ends up being

As a teacher, I felt like who are you to say that I need to improve? Like why are you saying this? I’m working really hard or I might think that I’m good, but I certainly can, I know that I’m working very hard at my job and this idea that there’s something somehow wrong with me and you’re telling me that I’m always having to do better is insulting or else, it’s certainly not a good feeling. Like why are you having this observation of me?

And so I think with COVID, had the advantage of like, it was a massive disruption. And I think also just other aspects of, you know, technology and society that it’s very easy for people to see like, this isn’t like when I grew up. And it’s also not even really like it was 10 years ago. And it might not even be like it was five years ago. There are some things that have changed.

And so in terms of school improvement, I think we’re a lot better off now because we don’t have to say that we’re trying to make you better in the same way so much as like our contexts are different now. And so we’re trying to address our evolving contexts that we have so that, you know, it’s okay that the way that we used to do things isn’t working anymore. And this isn’t about you.

it is about the fact that, you know, the kids in the context society, et cetera, is a little bit different and we’re having to figure that out and that’s okay. And so when we look at an improvement thing, then it is like, yeah, we are trying to get better as things around us are not static and that’s okay. And so I think that that hopefully kind of can get a little bit more of a growth mindset and things for our…

Jon Orr (25:08.685)

the people that we’re trying to support and and in a way that doesn’t make them feel like You know that a heavy-handed why aren’t you getting better? Right? What would you say is your current?

main focus and how are you, how are you strategizing around improving or working on that focus and just to give everyone kind of a snap, a snapshot of the work that you are doing. Yeah, I think it actually disconnects very much to the rest of this conversation, which is just how can we help people see any form of improvement in mathematics leadership, teaching and learning.

as being something that we can work toward and plan. I think largely in paralleling the type of work that you do across divisions and schools, I’ve never really felt that you were pressuring anyone in a particular direction necessarily so much as your approach is we’re looking at what improvement can look like. I would say something that is a little bit

More of a focus over the last couple years has been the leadership side of things. A lot of our stuff in the past has kind of been based on professional learning opportunities for teachers. You know, and we’ve done the things like thinking classroom and make math moments for the last couple of years as well. And then just our own various initiatives as well.

But the last couple of years, we really tried to add an element of mathematics leadership, which has been a little bit more intentional of focus, I would say, on what principles can be doing to help support in mathematics. And so that’s always an interesting thing to do as far as what really trying to use, trying to sort out what is it that a mathematics leadership should do.

Jon Orr (27:20.045)

It’s an interesting question. When we have mathematics leaders that are in roles of supporting math specifically, then we can kind of assume a certain degree of say mathematics content understanding, mathematics pedagogy understanding, and then also through a support lens as well. However, as we look at say,

most principles are not going to necessarily have a mathematics background to that degree. And so it starts to become what are some of the basic structures of mathematics, pedagogy or support that we are kind of trying to develop in our principles? What kind of math content, if any, are they needing to know so that they can kind of have those

mentor coaching leadership kind of discussions with their teams that will help their team move forward, even if the leader might not necessarily be a mathematics expert themselves. If you got to the end of the year and you could look back on all the things that you worked on this year and you said, only have one win by the end of the year, like one, like this was the thing. What would be the thing that you’re like, this is the win?

that we’re gonna get and we wanted to get.

Hmm. That is a good question. And I think to me, it still is tying very tightly to this idea that a school math plan is something that anyone can do. And that they, they can be very, very focused, and maybe small in scale, but still very powerful. And

Jon Orr (29:19.959)

perhaps especially because they can be achievable. And so I guess the other element of that is that schools feel that they are able to make decisions about what their goals actually are. know that, and we have lots of work to do on that, but I do feel that…

That is where I would like to be moving the needle all the time. I don’t think that that will ever really change too much that this idea that improving to whatever context that schools have is something that they are capable of. They are capable of developing those skills. that is the work to me. It is the work. I completely agree.

If you could leave one piece of advice for a leader who is either new to the role or Maybe you know, maybe they’re not new to the role But it would what what piece of advice would you offer a fellow leader who in mathematics? Who you know who’s continually doing doing the work that you’re doing what advice would you leave with them? Hmm another interesting question

I think the piece of advice that I most often offer to principals specifically, and it’s part of just our mentor coaching approach as well anyway, but certainly with the principals is the idea that you can, showing yourself as a learner is hugely impactful on the teams that you work with. And I mean,

the math teacher is going to know that the principal is not necessarily a mathematics expert. But nonetheless, the principal can be aware of, you know, some key guiding documents or say eight math teaching practices. It’s a short list. It’s existing, fit on a page. But understanding what that stuff looks like is a lifetime. And so you’ve got an opportunity there, I think, for principals to

Jon Orr (31:41.793)

just walk into classrooms and show themselves as a learner as far as, I’ve got these teaching practices and I’m just here to see how do you do these? This idea of, a heads up would be nice, obviously, like, hey, math teaching practice number two says blah, blah, blah. I just wanna see what that looks like in our school. And then it becomes, okay, now we get to have a conversation. And the more rooms they’re going to see, the more of an understanding of.

of what their context is going to be. And then hopefully some opportunities are going to arise where, you know, if you are looking at change in some particular way, you’re going to have a more clear idea. But more importantly is it’s not seeming arbitrary. And I think those conversations between leaders and teachers are so important. And like I said, it also provides it an opportunity to be, you know,

a learning conversation for both sides rather than I’m coming at you with this or whatever. One last question here, Blaine, and then I’ll let you get on with your busy day. You know, we’ve been working together for a few years now in, say, supporting roles in different fashions. What would you say is, say, your biggest takeaway from the work we’ve done together?

Jon Orr (33:07.309)

That’s funny. I’m not trying to make it seem like I’m a one-mil person here, but this conversation has been about largely what does improvement look like? How do we plan for it? And as I said earlier, I almost don’t care what people are working on, really. mean, in the background, obviously there’s…

a general direction, which I hope we can help people move toward. But so much of it is just that how to try to position people so that they can see and make those initial steps to what, if you want to call it a plan or improvement plan or anything like that, they can do that. And I think that your approach and the conversations we have with the

the North American group in general, like they really, like it just, that’s the sound of those conversations, right? And it’s always just so, I don’t have the right positive. It’s just fantastic listening to those people with those different perspectives. And you get to hear that, Hey, you’re at different places or Hey, I’ve been there and I’ve done that. And it’s different. And, you know, you might be in a totally different place, but it’s

that road to, okay, what are some actionable next steps and what’s a realistic objective for us that we can try to move toward? And I think that’s sort of been the main thing that I’ve gotten out of our work together. Awesome, awesome. Blaine, I wanna thank you for joining us here on this episode and look forward to,

Keeping up with our regular meetings, our regular check-ins, our regular support. And I think I might maybe see you a little later today in another call, but thanks so much. Okay, thanks, John.

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