Norma Gordon: Sometimes you just need to have that wait time and that listening within a group, and that would be a perfect opportunity. Just let's take a few deep breaths, slow everything down, and then you open up the space for students to listen. So it might be before you divide them into groups for a group project. It could be at the beginning. That was the example that I used. And math anxiety before an assessment, before presentation.

Kyle Pearce: On the podcast today, we speak with Norma Gordon on how you can create a less stressful math classroom through mindfulness. Norma has successfully transformed her classroom and has helped numerous teachers embed mindfulness in their routines.

Jon Orr: Stick around, and you'll hear Norma walk us through a mindfulness activity and share how to add mindfulness to your mathematics classroom, how to connect mindfulness to the math practice standards, why you need to use Focus 5 in your classroom, and finally, how you can use mathitations to help educators and students integrate mindfulness in their classes.

Speaker 4: Let's hit it. (singing)

Kyle Pearce: Welcome to the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. I'm Kyle Pearce.

Jon Orr: And I'm Jon Orr. We are from Making Math Moments, and together ...

Kyle Pearce: With you, the community of math moment makers worldwide who want to build and deliver math lessons that spark curiosity ...

Jon Orr: Fuel sense-making.

Kyle Pearce: And ignite your teacher moves, welcome math moment makers to another wonderful Making Math Moments That Matter episode. And today we are excited to bring to you Norma Gordon, and we're all going to maybe just take a nice, deep breath and try to reduce a little bit of that math anxiety.

Jon Orr: Yeah. And we've been chatting with Norma, seeing her here and there at conferences and through the online platforms for a number of years now, and we are excited to bring her on. So hey, let's not waste any more time. Let's get right into it.

Kyle Pearce: Here we go. Hey, Hey there, Norma. Thanks for joining us here on the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. We're super excited to have you on board for tonight's episode. How are things going in your world these days?

Norma Gordon: In my world? Well, thank you for having me tonight. I'm not quite sure where the world is, but I think being grounded, and this is the part where I balance my personal and professional with some yoga and all those things is helping. But we're all safe here just outside of Boston area and looking forward to our conversation this evening.

Jon Orr: We are as well. We are as well. And actually, I just did some yoga tonight with my wife. We do yoga pretty regularly, and I probably don't do it enough. Probably not as much as you Norma, but definitely something that I strive for. Norma, we've met a few times in the past, but we would love for you to tell us a little bit about yourself. We usually ask our guests to let us know where they're coming from. How long have you been in education? What's your role in education? All of that background. Give us a snapshot of Norma Gordon.

Norma Gordon: A snapshot of Norma Gordon. All right. Well, I will say that math education or education in general was not the original path that I took. And so I'm as surprised as most people around me who've known me for a long time that this is where I've ended up. Grew up in Montreal, so Canadian. And so it's really math, I was one of those folks. Total disclaimer, this is not how I feel right now, is like I was a math person. I always enjoyed games and numbers. But I think I always knew that math was part of dance that I did, puzzles, cooking. I just had a facility with it. So I think my number sense just came from doing things every day.
So I really had that track math experience, and then ended up doing engineering as my education and working in industry, but really felt like there was something else, and fell. I'm almost an accidental educator. Fell into supporting my community. Also, I had young kids at home and I wanted to have the same schedule as them. So ventured into volunteering and tutoring, and then just entering teaching mathematics through the lens of why not? Working with students, and really early on, it's so funny now when I think of all the packaging and the really interesting things folks are doing with project based learning and all of that.
I didn't know any different, and so when I had my first class of students, and shocked as I was, they just let me teach. I mean, I had got the certification, but I didn't do a practice teaching first. So it was really job embedded learning and job embedded professional development that I sought out. I just said, "All right, well, let's just all pretend that we are going to be selling our product." And I did mathematical modeling and project-based learning by saying, "We're learning linear functions. Let's design an ad for a product and do linear models."
So I never felt that there was this do math in a vacuum versus use math. And I think as an engineer, that's what we did. Used math to solve problems and create systems. So then I just realized that technology, the graphing calculator is great. Way better than those punch cards I used in engineering. And so I gravitated towards using that and realizing that I could support my colleagues. So the professional development lens is one that I took. Was very privileged to work in Lexington Public Schools in Massachusetts, very collaborative community, but also just I've learned more about education once I left the classroom.
And that's really a bit of a sad part of the story is I had to leave to explore the math inaudible blogosphere, the education technology space. And I've landed back in the school system, but if I hadn't left, I'm not sure I'd be the teacher that I am now and the educator.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah. That's such an interesting story. Thinking about, I think, many math teachers, especially if you're a secondary math teacher, let's say teachers that come out of high school, tend to have that feeling that they grew up like they were a math person. Right? I think Jon and I can definitely identify with that experience as well. We know so much more now. You had also referenced that as well, that math is so much more than what we knew it to be when we were younger.
Yet you went into industry, you came out and I would argue you flipped the script a little bit on what math class might've been like. I'm interested when we get into your math moment in a moment to see if that experience was a normal experience and how you went about teaching math. Is that how you learned it?
But then more importantly, or I guess more curious to us right now is curious why when you left, and I'm curious as to why, if it was for your children, raising a family? Or was it to do some consulting and then you dug deeper? I'm really interested, because I bet there's a lot of educators who are listening. I find that we have a lot of educators who are in more of a coaching consulting role that listen to the podcast. I don't know if it's just how busy teachers are in the day-to-day that they just don't have the time. It's like they're exhausted by the time they're done, their planning and report cards and calling parents and all of these things. So I'm curious, do you mind sharing a little bit more about that particular snapshot of your math teaching career?

Norma Gordon: So it's actually the flip of what you said. I left industry to be at home with my kids, and then I went into education as being part of the community. So when I talk about the leaving the classroom was when I felt my kids were done and launched and off at university. I thought I had given the school and the community as much as I had, and I had to leave to learn more. So I got burnt out as well. So probably a progression of many of your listeners. I was the math person, the engineer, industry, came in, taught the honors classes, and it was left to others to teach the students that were struggling.
But again, I was very fortunate that everyone had to teach at least one of the classes which were labeled as the lower level classes, but I would never use that label. These were the students that were disenfranchised. They were in high school and they were forgotten because they weren't on the calculus track or whatever. And I just felt that taking time more and more with those students, I learned from them how to be a better teacher.

Jon Orr: Yeah. That's a really interesting and great point that you're making here is I think sometimes I guess it depends on the makeup of your department or makeup of the teaching group that you're in. And it's almost like if you're doing all of the learning in your department to better the students, better the classes, and then you're trying to share that back out to the group, the group's like, "Okay, well, that's Norma's role. Norma always dives deeper on things and shares that back with us." But then that learning isn't deep for that other group.
And so then you're right. It's like you leaving would then open the door and be like, "Oh wait, now I have to teach that class, and then I get that learning." Or, "We're going to step away from the curriculum leader job," and then it's like, "Oh, someone else is going to step in." And then they get that learning. I think sometimes you have to step away so that it's good for the group, and I applaud you for that. That's a selfless move, for sure.
And I'm curious to dig a little deeper, like Kyle said, about your math moment. This is one of the questions we ask everybody, and I'm always curious to hear people's math moments. When we say math class and you think back to your own education, we've always got these moments that when you reflect on math class, there's all of a sudden this image that pops in our minds that just sticks with us for a long time. And I'm wondering what that moment is for you.

Norma Gordon: You're making me remember way back, guys.

Kyle Pearce: Don't give a date.

Norma Gordon: No, no. I have to say when I was thinking about that prompt that my math moment probably didn't come in math class. It came in a physics class. And again, I was more inclined to take the math and the physics courses. And I have this vivid recollection of applying mathematical models and equations and force and acceleration playing air hockey, table hockey, at Marianopolis College. That would be one of the highlights. It just made sense. Force, friction, momentum. So I think if you had to say my math moment is it was really applying mathematics, and that's been my journey.

Jon Orr: So your math moment is seeing the math applied in real situations. Kyle and I have our math moments have been like, "We're in math class and math looks like this," and it's not something how we want you to remember math class. We want math class changed. But your memory is not that. Your memory is like, "I see the power of mathematics, and I saw the power of mathematics." And I'm wondering, and this is something we always ask as a followup is like, how did your math moment shape how you became a teacher?

Norma Gordon: I think it shaped how you became a teacher is because there's always got to be a purpose. There's always got to be a context. So how did that math moment shape me as an educator? I think it's still shaping me. I still think I look for the why are we doing this? Where can I use it? What connections can I make? Both in the math classroom, where we have scenarios that we create, some arbitrary, some maybe visual, but also, I want students to leave the classroom and have teachers that I support to leave thinking about where else can I use this?

Kyle Pearce: I love it. It sounds like your experience was actually a really awesome experience for you to have, where it's almost like you had this metacognitive experience where you knew what math meant to you. And I don't know if I thought that deeply when I was younger about it. And it sounds like it's really shaped who you were, going first of all into industry, but then coming back and having that experience to be able to come back and go, "What really matters?"
I think that's something that I didn't have for many years was I came in. I looked at expectations or standards and I just looked at them as things we had to do and didn't really spend enough time thinking about the bigger picture, which is that's the hard thinking, right, is trying to think of why does this all matter? How does it all connect? How do we use this and why is it even here? So that's really interesting.
And I know you've got all kinds of experience to share, but something we wanted to dive a little deeper in with you, in particular, Norma, is that we know you're really active and, in particular, active in the social/emotional learning skills and mindset in mathematics area. I'm wondering how does that fit in? First of all, what got you on that path? Was that something that you were thinking about all along, or was it when you had left your school or your district and dove a little deeper? Is that when you landed upon it? How did that come into your educational experience? And then we've got, of course, some more questions for you about some of the work that you've done in that area as well.

Norma Gordon: It actually was while I was still teaching. As a high school teacher, there was some professional development and I was always looking for the not math professional development. I was comfortable and had a great community of colleagues. We could explore and play with mathematics together and teach it. And so there was a mindfulness professional development. I can't remember who offered it. And I went with one of my colleagues in the math department, and there was just sharing techniques to set the stage for a class that would be less stressful, what kind of practical techniques. And so we did some mindful eating, mindful breathing, visualization. Some of the very, I would say, traditional typical things that you'll see in a social/emotional or an advisory program in a school.
And I brought it back to my high school classroom where I was having a little bit of a tardiness problem. I don't think you've ever discovered.

Kyle Pearce: No one's ever had that happen.

Jon Orr: No, no.

Norma Gordon: No, No, no.

Jon Orr: All the students that I've ever taught have always been on time.

Norma Gordon: Yeah. So, and again, this is I had already started teaching some of the students that struggled. Math was not the class they were running to get to, despite I was making it fun and exciting and hands-on as best I could. But I would have a desk at the front that said, "I'm sorry, you came late. Just I want to check in with you," not even knowing that I was doing social/emotional learning and making that space for students.
And I started each class for a period of time ... I think I did a six-week trial of it ... where we would just breathe. So they'd sit down and be quiet. And I put a sign on the door saying, "We're just taking a couple of quiet moments. I'm sorry you didn't get here on time, but please just wait outside, and then we'll let you in." And within two or three weeks, there were some high school kids rolling their eyes. This was not for them. And quite frankly, in high school, I might've been one of those. But over a short period of time, students really appreciated that time to just take a pause and not go from class to class to class. And so they valued it, and I had fewer students coming late.
And so had to be something there. I wish I had pursued it more. It was hard to sustain for me and I wasn't as invested. And then I came back to it, doing yoga for myself and seeing how taking the time to breathe. And it was more recently in the last few years when it was almost by chance. I was doing advisory with a sixth grade classroom, and I brought in these breathing exercises, because they didn't want to do math. It was five minutes of just your Friday morning, and took it from there.

Jon Orr: Norma, I'm curious about the ... I think in a little bit we're going to get you to model this for us. And I think that would be awesome for you to share what this looks like in the classroom, how you can do this in the classroom. But I'm wondering, before we even get to that part, I'm thinking where does this fit in into a teacher's lesson? So if you think of a teacher listening to this episode right now, they're like, "Okay, well, this sounds interesting." You just shared that it changed some of maybe the behavior management side of things on my classroom. How did that affect, once kids got there, did that change the management of that? And also, where does this fit in? Do you do at the beginning, the middle, the end, all of these above? That kind of stuff.

Norma Gordon: Yeah. I think it's any good teacher is reading the room constantly. And so it might be at the beginning, and it doesn't just have to be these, "We'll model this little breathing exercise." It's really these core competencies of social/emotional learning, and this collaborative for academic and social/emotional learning, CASEL, has a framework where there are five elements. The five are self-awareness and self-management. So what are the students doing for themselves to be open to learning? Because if they don't feel open and safe, they're not going to learn. And then the other two are more ... So those are more intra. Then the interpersonal relationships are the social awareness and the relationship skills. And then overall, there's this responsible decision-making.
So within those five, those play into the classroom, and particularly in math classroom, almost at any point in time if we connect it. And this is where I want to ... I connect the breathing, the mindfulness to the math practices. If you're about to engage students in mathematical discourse, sometimes you just need to have that wait time and that listening within a group, and that would be a perfect opportunity. Just let's take a few deep breaths, slow everything down, and then you open up the space for students to listen.
So it might be before you divide them into groups for a group project. It could be at the beginning. That was the example that I used. And math anxiety before an assessment, before a presentation. So giving students skills that make sense and that they can use in the math class. And as I said earlier, it's something that they can take with them beyond the math class.

Kyle Pearce: I like how you had mentioned that you didn't even know you were doing it when you had started that routine at the beginning of class, the breathing routine, where students were starting to show up on time. And it's one of those, I would say, habits that we have to build into our process and build into how we run our classroom routines. And you could see how something as simple as that, and I can imagine what it's like, especially in a high school classroom, when you're trying to introduce some of these ideas, sometimes students can feel a little bit, we'll call it awkward, right? And they usually don't like that. When things are different, it can take some time for them to build that culture.
But I'm thinking to myself, how many opportunities in my class where I could have been doing some of these activities, some of these routines, just to help students slow down and really just reflect, right, and think. Because I think we just run through the day so quickly. And at school, especially in a high school class where kids are running from class to class, they have a few minutes between class. They're worried about being late. There's always something going on. And it just feels to me like such a culture where we're building stress and anxiety into our students versus doing the opposite.
So I'm wondering, for people who want to go deeper with these five elements, what got you down this path? What resources ... Is it books, websites ... could you offer? If there's people wondering, "How do I learn more about these five elements?" and to find some routines that they can start putting into their classroom without much effort?

Norma Gordon: Well, I would definitely send them to the CASEL website. It's C-A-S-E-L.org. And there you get the framework where you can actually click on. It's nice little wheels colored with the inter, the self-awareness, self-management, and dig a little bit deeper. And they also have some resources that I would love to come back and explore with you some more about how these connect to the mathematical practice standards. So some really good resources there.

Jon Orr: We'll definitely put that in the show notes page. And I'm wondering right now, I wonder if this is a good time, Norma, to model what, say, a mindfulness activity might look like for us and put Kyle and I through a mindfulness exercise.

Norma Gordon: Absolutely. Let's see how that can go. But I heard you already did your yoga today. So that could-

Jon Orr: I did. I need more.

Norma Gordon: I think also, too, personally, the more I started practicing yoga, the better I felt and more balanced. And so one of the ones, the early ones that I started doing. So again, if it's in a math class, counting, right? Obviously just counting your breath alone is mathematical, but also understanding how you're affecting the nervous system. And so typically people will inhale and exhale. With your counting, it's the same, right? And that's just steady. That gives a core.
But if you make a longer exhale, you are slowing down the system. So again, think about the purpose. And so that's the one that we will do. But you could also flip it around, and if you want to build up energy or some excitement, then the inhales are for a longer count than your exhales.

Kyle Pearce: Interesting. I'm thinking about this. I definitely know, unless I slow and I think consciously about my breathing, I find I'm not a very deep breather. I feel like it definitely keeps almost like my heart rate maybe higher than it needs to be throughout the day. And I've read some articles about this. So I'm curious. You like to name the mathitations. You have some great ones on your website, and we'll let you take us through that process, which is fantastic. My guess would be in a mathitation, we're probably working to slow down versus get amped up. So we'd be looking for more of that slower exhale rather than a quick exhale.

Norma Gordon: Correct, correct. And it's about how you count it and the mindset that you bring to it. So I also find that having someone count through, and creating these routines is helpful. And then getting the students to create their own. So thinking about the patterns, either as we're breathing or visual or whatever.
All right, well-

Jon Orr: Now-

Norma Gordon: So the first one-

Jon Orr: I was going to-

Norma Gordon: Go ahead.

Jon Orr: I was going to say, if anyone's driving right now, you might want to pull over. Go ahead. Sorry, Norma.

Norma Gordon: That's a good point. That's right. This is a podcast. Right? All right. So the first one that I did, and again, to make it a connection. So you could breathe in any class or any, and so I called it the Fibo focus just to give myself a count and a foundation. And so the pattern is the Fibonacci sequence. And letting you know, so this is a practice, right? So when I say inhale and exhale, purposely this is something new that's not on the version that's on the website. I'm not going to have you hold your breath, because I'm also learning more about being trauma sensitive. Often that's triggering for someone to have to hold their breath, like inaudible and hit the panic button.
So this particular one that I'm going to do with you, we're just going to be breathing in and out, and it should feel comfortable. And it's just a suggestion, right? So I will do the count. So first get yourself comfortable. As you said, if you're driving-

Kyle Pearce: Yeah. I was going to ask you about in terms of any recommended body position for students, like hands on their thighs and just in an upright position, head down, head straight?

Norma Gordon: I'll do that intro, and you can see that there's options, because it's all about students feeling comfortable. So find yourself in a comfortable, grounded position where you feel secure. And so for some of you that might be standing by your desk or sitting at your desk. And your hands should be comfortable, either in your lap, palms up or palms down. And for some students, they feel safe enough that they can close their eyes. And for others, I would just ask them to gaze down at a spot that's not moving. Just eliminate some of the other distractions, and just find your breath and then follow. And we'll breathe in for one, and out for one. And then we'll breathe in for two, one, and out for three, two, one. And then take a deep breath in for five, four, three. Sip in some more air, two, one, and let it all go for eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two one.
And then you could repeat that cycle. You could play with the pattern and do it backwards, but that was just a very short introduction. And then you can talk about the pattern one, one, two, three, five, eight. What do you notice?

Jon Orr: I like it.

Norma Gordon: And why didn't I keep going? Because what would come next?

Kyle Pearce: Yeah.

Jon Orr: Yeah. We'd be waiting a while.

Kyle Pearce: And actually, Jon and I might not come back, because actually I was feeling quite relaxed. So I definitely the palms up did it for me, and I was feeling just a nice, relaxed feeling. And yeah, definitely awesome.
So I'm wondering, Norma, for those who are listening and they're going, "Wow, this seems like something that I could add to my classroom. I could add a routine of," and it sounds like you could use this exact same sequence. It's not like it has to always be changing. And maybe it might even be better to keep it more constant for at least a little bit of time. How many others do you have available on your website? Are there other websites doing something like this? What would you suggest to someone who's listening saying, "How do I do this in my class? How do I get started?"

Norma Gordon: Right. So I'd send them where I got started. So there is this SERP Focus 5. So the SERP Institute is a research institute, and they actually have some other good math things. Algebra by example. That's for another day and time, too. But I started with these, it's called Focus 5, and these are scripted activities about taking deep breaths with counting and with movement. So if you raise your arms up, you're raising your energy, and then you bring your arms back down, you're feeling grounded and centered. And so those were scripts that I just started with. So that's a great place to start.
I know there's lots of good apps out there. Many of them are free for educators to practice doing their own meditation. Headspace and Calm. And I haven't used any of those, because I do it in my yoga practice. And then I have a handful on my website, and I want to explore more, but I want to be more deliberate about it and connect it to mathematical lessons.
So part of it, too, when you do this and you're making an organic in the classroom, I think the math practices should often be organic as well. I think we tend to label things and then it's like we're working on practice one. You've got to persevere. Or we're working on math practice six.

Kyle Pearce: For the next three days.

Norma Gordon: Right.

Jon Orr: Right.

Norma Gordon: And math practice exam to be precise. And then it becomes silence. It kind of is like how we were teaching content standards versus concepts. And so to me, when you do a breathing exercise, then ask the students, "What's that going to help us do?" Or, "If you're counting precisely, right, and when we were breathing, why was it important to have that position?" So just weave the stories in.
And so I'm creating these workshops where we'll run through some of these activities. We'll also unpack the math practice standards and then make that connection, make that crosswalk. So that's something that I'm exploring and did a rough draft before COVID, but it involved a yoga practice as well. Some self-care for the teachers. So we'll get back to that or I'll figure out other ways to do it virtually as everyone's exploring.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah, absolutely. I really like this idea of trying to avoid siloing, especially when you think about the math practices for the common core, here in Ontario we have now included social/emotional learning skills, and we've always had process expectations, and the process expectations are much like the math practice standards. And when we think about it, I look at those as the overarching place we want our students to get to. And the content standards or the content expectations here in Ontario are just the means to help you get better at those things. They're the things we're going to focus on and do, but in service of developing these skills.
And I can definitely see this mindfulness connection, getting students to be more mindful and to help them with their social/emotional learning skills, helping them develop those skills. It's so key, because again, when we look at what we want students to walk away with from a math class, we never say it's Pythagorean Theorem or solving quadratics. These are things we focus a lot of our time and attention on, but in reality, we want resilient problem solvers. We want students who can persevere. We want students who can work through difficult situations, get themselves out of jams and all of these things, being able to reason and prove. These are ideas that we want students to bring with them, because they are so important in math, but then also in all aspects of life.
So I'm wondering as we're getting closer to the end of this episode, Norma, what big idea or big takeaway would you like to leave as a final thought for the math moment maker community? So if there's one thing that you hope that listeners will take with them from this episode, what are you hoping that message would be? And then we'll give you an opportunity to let people know where they can find more about you.

Norma Gordon: I think the big takeaway, if you find the time and space to just breathe and take things in, you have a better sense of who you are and your identity, and then you can find your mathematical identity. You can find your mathematical community, and you can have agency. And it's about balance, right? So if we want to make that connection, it's balance in your body, balance in your mind. When we're problem-solving and we're balancing equations, it's all part of the same being and taking the time to recognize that.
And it's not something else, or we're not now check off the box, social/emotional, check off the box, math practice. We're putting it together. We're a community. We're human. There's humanizing in mathematics in a lot of ways. This is just being human for yourself.

Jon Orr: I like how you have articulated that it's all interconnected. And sometimes we don't think of it that way. It's that part, and then there's math class. So I am really excited for you to share that with the Make Math Moments That Matter community.

Kyle Pearce: Who are they again?

Jon Orr: So yes, it's all that alliteration is just mumbled in my mouth, but thanks so much, Norma, for sharing that. I think we get a lot out of that and I think we can all be more mindfulness in our practice.
So I'm wondering, before we sign off here, where our community can learn more about you and your work. So where would you have them reach out to you?

Norma Gordon: Well, I am working on cleaning up my website. So normabgordon.com, and there is a page with mathitations. I'm also very available and active on Twitter at Norma B. Gordon Twitter handle. So those would be the two places to reach out. And I would love to hear from your listeners what they're doing, what they're experiencing, and make this a community of learning.

Kyle Pearce: Love it. Love it. Well, we will definitely add all of those to the show notes. We'll have your Twitter up there. Norma B Gordon on Twitter. Also, your website, normabgordon.com, where folks can find out more about you and mathitations, in particular. And we'll also make sure that we include some of those other links as well from the SERP Institute. And we'll also even include the Headspace app and the Calm app, just for people who want to do some exploring there as well.
So thank you so much for taking some time to not only share with us, but also to make Jon and I a little bit more mindful this evening. We appreciate you, and we really, really look forward to staying connected online and hopefully face-to-face at an upcoming conference sometime soon.

Norma Gordon: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you. Can't wait to hear more math moments from your other folks in the community, and appreciate your time. Be well. Stay safe.

Kyle Pearce: Thanks so much, Norma.

Jon Orr: Thanks.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah, you, too. Thank you.

Jon Orr: Yes, you, too. We'll talk to you soon, Norma.

Norma Gordon: Take care.

Kyle Pearce: As always, both Jon and I learned so much from these episodes. But remember, in order to ensure we hang on to this new learning so it doesn't wash away like footprints in the sand, we must reflect on what we've learned. Jon and I get to reflect on this every time we record an episode, because then we get to go back and edit it, re listen to it. And then we also have to write these bumpers, the intro and the outro. So we do a ton of relearning.
So how are you going to go ahead and do some learnings so that learning will stick and doesn't wash away?

Jon Orr: Yeah. So a great way to hold yourself accountable is you could write it down, or even better, share it with some of your partner or colleagues or with the Math Moment Maker community. Hit us up over on social media in our free private Facebook group, Math Moment Makers K-12, or get us on Instagram or Facebook at Make Math Moments.

Kyle Pearce: Yes. And remember, hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform. And we're doing a lot on YouTube these days. So look up, Make Math Moments on YouTube. Hit the subscribe button and ring that notification bell so you know when we go live or when a new episode or video, I should say, is released.

Jon Orr: Yeah. Show notes and links to resources and complete transcripts to read from the web or download and take with you. Head on over to our show notes page, makemathmoments.com/episode137. Again, makemathmoments.com/episode137.

Kyle Pearce: Well, until next time, my Math Maker Moment friends, I'm Kyle Pearce.

Jon Orr: And I'm Jon Orr.

Kyle Pearce: High fives for us and a high five for you.

Speaker 4: (singing)