Kyle Pearce: Welcome to the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. I'm Kyle Pearce.

Jon Orr: And I'm John Orr. We are from makemathmoments.com. And we are two math teachers who together with you the community of math moment makers worldwide who want to build and deliver problem-based math lessons that spark curiosity, fuel sense making and ignite your teacher moves.

Kyle Pearce: Welcome math moment maker friends to another episode of the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. We are excited as we always are to bring you another episode up, but actually, this time it's going to be a little bit different. It is February, which is Black History Month. And John and I were thinking about how can we highlight or how can we reshare some of the voices that have been missing from mathematics and bring them back to the forefront here. And really, especially for some of our newer listeners to give them maybe a bit of a roadmap on which episodes they might want to go and dig into after listening to a few short clips here.

Jon Orr: Yeah. I'm glad you brought up this. It's a reminder because I feel even though February is a month of honoring black voices and we want to do that here in this particular episode, but Kyle, I feel it's a reminder that we have so much more work to do, because we're honoring black voices in this episode during this month, but it's a reminder that this is an ongoing process. This is an ongoing learning for us, you and me on a regular basis. This isn't, hey, we're just going to do this in February and then move on. That's not what we want this episode to be about. I don't think that's something our society, even though we're honoring it in this month, it should be a reminder that, hey, we have a month, but this is something that we should be doing on a regular basis.
We should be always embedding and thinking about the students we have in our classrooms, what their world looks like, how do we incorporate that into our math lessons? I think there's a lot of work that we're still doing to do that. And in this particular episode, we want to highlight six educators that had a significant impact on our pedagogical practices, from the conversations that we've had over the last couple of years here on this particular podcast. And it's helped us create this more culturally responsive classroom. We want to highlight that here in this episode

Kyle Pearce: Awesome stuff. In particular and well said, John, again, that reminder piece, I think it's really important for us to be thinking about when you do reflect on Black History Month, why is that the reminder? We've had to be doing this work throughout the year. So very well said. In this episode, you'll be hearing from some of our past guests. John mentioned like Lefron Davis who speaks about diversity, helps us unpack what is diversity and what is not through my very loaded question that you'll hear momentarily. Lauren Bocoms passion towards de tracking and all of the data behind it and unfortunately how racializing de tracking process really is that you may or may not be aware of right now. Mindfulness and identity in the classroom from Christina Lincoln Moore, the importance of catalyzing change from Robert CU Barry and Chris Childs actually shares his insights on something we talk about in this episode or in every episode about how the gradual release of responsibility sucks.
That was the name of his episode. And he talks about how task selection can actually increase or decrease access and equity. And then finally, we're going to be bringing back some of Jose Wilson ideas on the importance of teacher voice in the education system. Now, before we dive in, we do want to say thank you as always to Ali, our fantastic podcast editor. He is willing to work so hard to bring any idea and make it come to life for you, the math moment maker community. Once again, shout out to Ali. Awesome, awesome work as usual. And John, what do you say we get started?

Jon Orr: Okay. Let's get into it. Yeah. Here we go. We're wondering, in your opinion, what is diversity and what is not diversity and why is it so important that every educator really... It's one thing to say that you care about equity and diversity, but it's another thing to actually do the hard work of trying to figure it out. Can you help us understand that a little bit more for those who are sitting at home and they've only lived the life that they've lived and they might be struggling with, how can they help ensure that there is equity in their classroom?

Speaker 3: That's a pretty loaded question. What is diversity and what is not and equity and what isn't. I think that the best way I can explain it is like this. When I'm in a classroom... Forgive me, in a classroom. Let me go into my professional learning spaces. I would like the area from which I learn to mirror the community and world of which I live. That's a pretty direct and loaded question to that. And I'm going to get to that in a second. There are certain things like affinity groups. Affinity groups are like, especially for minority in terms of ethnicity, culture, and race and gender, sometimes those affinity like minded groups are important in terms of building support structure for each other. For example, one of the school districts that I worked in, the high school girls ran a coding club for girls.
And so the high school girls would visit elementary and middle school campuses and host these coding clubs just for girls to learn together. And that was my first introduction to that world because I was like, "Why do we need to do this, blah, blah, blah." But once I saw how those girls just were able to blossom and open up and learn in a way that they wouldn't have been able to in a what we would consider a more diverse class, it just solidified for me on what it meant to have those moments of support. You have to have sometimes those moments of support, but that doesn't mean that it's okay for a person to only be around people who are exactly like them. That shouldn't be the case. I say that shouldn't be the case, but it often is the case, especially when those structures are needed.
For example, a community school that is in a predominantly black neighborhood, is going to have predominantly black students in the classroom. That's the way it should be within that community structure. And so that's a completely different experience. And I'm trying to find my best way to answer this because this is what I meant by this is a loaded question and it's hard to answer. But in terms of my adult professional learning... I guess in my experience coming from tech, I'm used to walking into a room and being the only black person in the room. And I'm surrounded by a whole group of very white privileged people who do not... have not quite even understanding that maybe we should have more than one black person in this room. Where are my native communities? Where are my Hispanic communities? Where are my Asian commu... It's just so mind boggling to me how we've just become okay with that.
That's one major area. When we talk about diversity, and I don't mean just filling it with, oh, we have three people of this race. Now we need three more of this one and four more of this one and five more of this one. No, not what I mean. I mean that the space needs to be inviting and open to all who need and want to learn. That's number one. And then in terms of when we're trying to look at expertise within those spaces, we need to look at people for who they are and the expertise for who they are.
And I would like to say regardless of race, but because there's just this, I guess, inherent, I don't want to call them blinders of bias. Sometimes it is a person can have the... Not sometimes, it happens often. Two people can have the exact same qualifications, but nine times out of 10, the person who is a non person of color or a white person would be seen more of an expert, especially if it's a white male than a person of color or a woman. And that has been consistent across the board, not just in tech, but across in other fields as well. I guess the gist of this whole thing is make your rooms as mirroring to the world as you can possibly make them. Invite people of different thoughts, invite people of different backgrounds, ethnicity, cultures, genders, but making sure that everyone has the exact same opportunity to be a part of the learning environment. And I don't even know how else to just tackle such a broad conversation that it almost deserves its own conversation.

Kyle Pearce: Absolutely. And I really first want to applaud you for handling that question. And really, I feel like I learned a few things there as well. And something that I heard echoed in your message was this idea. I was trying to Google as we were talking here, I heard in a book somewhere where they described this idea of empathy being the ability to essentially see the world through the eyes of other people. And I try my best to think about that and try to think of, I only see the world through my own eyes.
And this is for... You had mentioned all kinds of different scenarios here, whether it be race or whether it be sexual orientation or whether it be all of these different, the diversity, the pieces that make us different, being able to think about what the world looks like and what the world feels like through somebody else's eyes, I think is really important. And it's really hard at the same time. And I love how you're just saying about the number one thing we can do to start is to ensure that the space is inviting and it's ready and it's... Really creating that non-threatening classroom environment so that every learner feels welcomed and feels as though this is going to be a very low stress, very high, and engaging experience every single day.

Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I didn't even talk on sexual identity. And that's an area that we often leave off, but is also equally as important. It's not just our classrooms, it's our school community. Does every person feel they are part of it? Does every person feel valued? Does every person feel they have a safe space? You need safe spaces and you need communal spaces. And we sometimes forget that. And I think that my times, whether it be as a student or even now as a person connecting with the world outside of education, I feel I've learned just so much more on what it truly means to be inclusive and to even open my eyes broader than I really had ever had before. Even though I thought my eyes were open broad, they really weren't. I would like to think that now I can take these ideals and somehow embed them into my work in some capacity. That's what I'm trying to do anyway.

Kyle Pearce: As I was just reflecting to myself, I realized something interesting in how we make these assumptions. And you would referenced the scenario where if a white male is going for a position and there's a person of color or if it's a female or... Name the other groups that might be in the mix here, how this issue with the table being tilted in one direction, something that is really difficult is the assumptions we make about people just from our initial perception or what we see. And I had a scenario where, for example, and this is not nearly as important or deep, but for my son, my son's a pretty big boy and he's in junior kindergarten. And when he is playing with the other kids in our neighborhood, they're a few years older.
And because he is so big, he's about the same size as those students or as those kids. And oftentimes he gets treated a little differently because it's like they see his size and they assume that he should know certain things like the older kids know, like what's appropriate and what's not in certain cases. And I've seen that scenario. And that to me is such a minor thing. But to me, it just shows that by jumping to a conclusion initially, that can really, really cause some issues. We have to be hypersensitive to these things, especially when we're working with our students in the classroom to try to dig deeper and try to make sure that we understand without making any assumptions so that we can be as equitable, not equal. We want to be equitable to ensure that we can support everyone in the areas that they need to be supported in most.
When this tracking occurs, help us understand why this first stage is necessary. What did you feel? Or what did you observe happening around you that made you think that no, we need data here. We need to stop. My guesses is going with just what someone's thinking off the top of their head. Those unconscious biases come out and all of these things are going on. Help us understand what does that look like or sound like? Or what did it look like, sound like.

Speaker 4: Right. I could paint the image there for you to say, I asked a question in one of our department meetings and I said, "How do we decide where a student is going to go next?" And the answer was, "Well, they just move on to the next class." And I was like, "That's so interesting." If a student originally gets placed in, let's say a double tracked year, long math class, which is a slower version than the course is offered for other students, then they were always be double tracked year long math classes.

Jon Orr: And there's no possibility of moving say to a different track.

Speaker 4: Then that was my question. Was how do we know when a student has been misplaced and could possibly do well on a different track? How do we know when that student has been rutted?

Kyle Pearce: And isn't the point to try to help push them forward? It's not that, okay, now they go down there and they'll pop out at the other end or at least that's what we're hoping is not going on. But it sounds like that is what was happening. Or at least that unless someone maybe came in and made a case for it. Maybe parents came in and said, "Hey, we want to do something about this." Or is that even possible? Is taht even something that happens?

Speaker 4: Sure. Well, in North Carolina, we're in a really interesting phase of being a teacher. And one of those things is that parents often can come in and cart blanche change what is going on for our students pathway. And in some ways that's extremely beneficial because a student has an advocate and their pathway can change. In other cases, that's extremely lacking in benefit because it means that a student could often be placed on a track that maybe a teacher didn't think they were ready for. And so there's a tension there between just those two realities and also just calling out there that it shouldn't be fair that a parent is able to come in and change their kids' track just because they have the ability to make it to the school building between the hours when the school is open and ready to listen to them.
If a parent cannot physically go to advocate for their student, then that track for that kid is cemented in sedentary from the moment they walk in the door. And that doesn't mean that the parent doesn't care. It doesn't mean the parent isn't aware. It doesn't mean that the parent doesn't want something better for their child. It's just that the physical hours of when the school building is open, it privileges those who are working at, home from home, and have the capability of making it to the school to advocate for their kids in that particular way.
You can define tracking as a really easy example of educational violence because it limits the opportunities of that student moving forward in life and what they're capable of becoming. This goes back to our conversation about becoming, so that is really important. I wasn't just delving into this as a social experiment to see if I could change it. This is bigger than that. Like I said, I had experience and understanding these systemic issues and why it was important to engage in this change. And I did have a very supportive principle, but I convinced him with research that I knew what I was talking about and he knew what I was talking about.
And I think what you're talking about too, Kyle, is this issue of, you're calling it streams, is knowing that they crisscross and allow student to change. The question is, are they changing? Do people change streams? And who changes streams? How do we know that those streams are serving all of our students well, specifically our marginalized populations because those are the students who typically get pushed into the streams or those streams are committing educational violence against our students, they're limiting their opportunities. And so we look backwards for that gate. Where did that gate first happen that pushed them into the lowest stream so that now they have to wait for an interchange for them to be able to change over into a different stream, to advocate for themselves to get out of that stream. That's all work that people who are in the highest stream don't have to do,

Kyle Pearce: Right. Just those barriers. One barrier after another. Absolutely.

Jon Orr: Definitely good point. That just because there's crossovers, doesn't eliminate these inequities that you're trying to fix at your school.

Speaker 4: Right. And so I think that was what I saw. And this is often true. Equity is now becoming a huge buzzword. Access and inequity in and of itself is a huge buzzword that people want to be a part of, but it's also being taken up by the mainstream in a way that is not critical. That is actually not addressing issues of power, issues of identity for students. And so then what is its purpose if it does nothing? If it is bland? It's like having no salt on your food, you can't taste. What is the point of equity if it does nothing for the people who are lacking in power and are needing a space for their voices to be amplified? To have those people who are in power and who do have identity in those spaces to be able to come back and help those voices be amplified that don't. It's just important as a marker to make sure that we realize that equity right now too is a buzzword. And if it's not actually disrupting power structure, then it really has no purpose, it's just a crosstalk.

Jon Orr: For sure.

Speaker 5: Well, it's so important. That's why in my presentations, my focus is on integrating social, emotional learning with mathematics, because the impact on identity book with the Danny Martin, Catherine, Mayfield Ingram, and Julia Agidy, say, that your mathematical identity is just as strong as your gender, your race, your faith. We have to develop these positive entities and how you do that is the social, emotional learning competencies. How do you build that self-awareness or that self-efficacy that I can do it? Maybe I wouldn't have dropped out of my trade class if I had someone to say, you can, it's hard, but you can do it. To me, that is very important, into building students mathematical identities.

Jon Orr: And we've seen in those workshops presentations, you do speak about that and about mindfulness and how it's culturally relevant teaching practice. Let's keep going with where you've segued nicely into this. And if we keep talking about that, I'm wondering for teachers who are listening, what mindfulness, strategies or teaching practices would you recommend and why... I guess you've articulated a little bit why right there, but maybe elaborate a little bit more for teachers right now listening to say why this is so important and how they could do that in their classroom.

Speaker 5: Well, as I introduced this to my staff, that first mindfulness was for them to develop their own personal practice. Teaching is hard. Whatever skin you live in has another dimension of difficulty. Self care and being able to practice self-compassion is very important. And once I have self for myself, I can start exuding that to others. With my bucket theory, you can't pour from an empty cup or empty bucket. I have to give from what I have been given. With mindfulness first, as to the teacher, that first you build self resilience and then we go to self-awareness and then emotional regulation and then focusing on healthy relationships. When students develop these skills, how to talk to students, how to listen to students, how to be empathetic, how to truly be kind, that's when the culture of your class and then emanates through the school changes where that we see ourselves as each of us as valued human beings who are heard and loved and what you are respected and cared for, just because of who you are.
Doesn't matter what grade you earn. Doesn't matter anything. Just for being human, you're valued. And when you think... From when you're a mindful leader, that is the lens that you look out from when you're making decisions, when you're talking to students. I'm not looking at you as a data point, which a lot of administrators tend to think because we're forced to, because of our testing culture. I think of you as a human being.
I always say Maslow before Blooms. What can I do first to meet those needs and then we can go on to those other more academic needs? Social, emotional learning is not a soft skill as it said, it is essential to life. If we're not developing that and having that culture in our classrooms, we can say whatever we want. It's not going to be as powerful. They're not going to learn as much. I had some students who've just graduated 2020, who I had in second grade. I had been following them through Facebook and all of this. And why are these kids still trying to talk to me? It's because of the relationships that we've built.

Jon Orr: Before we get into talking about where this idea comes from and why you felt like this was a necessary book to put out there, would you give our listeners who have not heard of this a little bit of a background on what is this book series about? Almost like a little elevator pitch.

Speaker 6: All right. Yeah. Catalyzing change is actually a three book series. And the first book in the series, Catalyzing Change in High School Mathematics Initiating Critical Conversations, came out in April of 2018. And the sole purpose, I want to say sole purpose, but the purpose of the series is to get teachers, educators, administrators, parents, to have critical conversations on issues that impact the experiences of students in K-12. In April of this year, Catalyzing Change in Early Childhood Elementary Mathematics and Catalyzing Change in Middle School mathematics came forward as well, and they were published this year. And so there were four big recommendations. And the first recommendation was the idea to broaden the purpose of learning mathematics. In the high school book, I think there would three of them. One was to understand and critique the world, experience the joy wonder and beauty of mathematics, and expanding professional opportunities.
And you can imagine expanding professional opportunities may not be an appropriate conversation to have in early childhood elementary, but experience joy wonder and beauty would be an appropriate conversation. And so in early childhood elementary, it has experienced joy wonder and beauty. It also has this idea of using mathematics to understand and critique the world and the same with middle schools. That was the idea. What is the purpose of learning mathematics?
The second recommendations about equitable structures, and in high school, much of the conversations around tracking. We know that tracking perhaps... Well, in many places begin in elementary school and in some places it may begin in sooner settings than that. And so this discussion about structures around tracking, around ability grouping, around marginalizing students and sorting students for or whatever reason and having conversations around that and what it might mean. I know in the Early Childhood Elementary book, there is this discussion around what is the purpose of this idea of assessments that happens when students enter pre-K classrooms and what are they being used for? Partly it's not to have a positionality to say, not to do these things. Let's have conversations on why you're doing those things. And if you're doing those things to lessen opportunities for students, have a conversation about those things.
The fourth recommendations about equitable teaching practices, and these are over overlapping with the eight effective teaching practices for NCTM in their principles action. But particularly it focuses on the idea of mathematical identity and mathematical agency as a part of teaching and learning mathematics. We want also to see themselves as doers of mathematics, and that has a message across K-12, pre K-12. Then this idea of agencies of if I see myself as a doer mathematics, then I will engage in behaviors that do as a mathematics engage. But for the teacher, is how do I create those structures in my classroom so that students can engage in those kinds of things. What task am I giving students so that students can see themselves as do as a mathematics? What kinds am I giving students so the students can have a sense of agency? And the fourth recommendations around mathematical understanding, which is around maybe content, essential concepts, and central content and the processes and the practices

Kyle Pearce: Really. We're just moving towards a more equitable mathematics education experience. I'm wondering if you can speak to that a little bit, because I know that you're very passionate about access and equity and mathematics.

Speaker 7: That's the key. There's a couple things as we unpack access and equity. First, when we change from that gradual release modeling, we build upon the experience that students bring into the classroom structure. Think about currently, regardless of which method you use, how many opportunities do students get to speak during mathematics class? That's every student. And this is aside from, I have my low level students. I have my high level students. Take all labels off of your students. Does every student, when they walk into class, have an opportunity to engage in a mathematical discussion? That's first thing we need to start discussing before we even get to access to equity. Because if every student's not getting that opportunity, you are disenfranchising students from the moment just with giving them an opportunity to engage in the mathematics lesson. And I'm going to pick on my elementary teachers a little bit.
I always joke. There's a big thing. You got to call on students by using the popsicles. In elementary, they pull out popsicles sticks with the names. That's not the method I'm talking about. Strategically calling upon students based upon their responses. That's what we need to get at. That way, every student, regardless of who he or she is, can engage in a mathematical discussion and participate in the mathematics.
That is the basis that I want for the listeners to think about. The next time you teach... This is something you can start immediately. Start making note of how many times your students get the opportunity to participate and getting it out of the notion. One of the access and equity issues is that raise your hand method. Because if I know they answer, I'm going to naturally raise my hand. If I don't, I'm not. How do you give every student think time and strategically call upon your students based upon what they've done in their individual think time and pull that out of them? That's how you can get more students involved in the discussion as opposed to raising your hand. Oh yeah. The answer, move into the next one.
We have to start really... When it comes to access and equity, rethinking who is positive as... I'll go there in a minute. Who is positive as mathematicians. But just in the classroom structure, we have to start rethinking, does every student have an opportunity to engage? Then when we think about students having the opportunity to engage, we also have to think about that task selection phase. I told you in the beginning, it is just, hey, I want you think about some high level tasks. As you transition even further on your journey, I want you to start thinking about, do the tasks benefit my students or do the tasks benefit me or just some standardized curriculum?
Can they benefit me? I'm going to focus on things that I like as a teacher. If they benefit my students, I'm going to start thinking about what tasks do my students like? I pick on my male teachers all the time. I go to their classrooms. "Dr. Charles, I love sports. So we're going to do sports." I have two girls at home and I'm not stereotype my two girls. They don't care about sports. We have to think about what do you students like. I know most students like... Right now, the phase is sport night or the different games. So how do we build upon those things? Those are access and equity pieces. When we think mathematics has to be tied to that book or the examples in the book that's sometimes outdated, or we think mathematics has to be done in the way that we were taught.
Mathematics needs to be done in a way that's authentic to the students that we serve and bring it in their experiences. Naturally bringing in their experiences, not stereotypically bringing in their experiences. That's just a baseline for us to even begin this access and equity discussion. And you're probably telling in my voice, I've totally wrapped it up because this is huge because when we think about access and equity, this is how we get the future mathematicians. This is how students begin to like math. This is also how students begin to hate math. It's starting within our classroom structures because who do we pose it as a mathematician? Who do we say math is for? We have to, as teachers, start unpacking our biases, and we all have some biases in this regard, to truly give students a unmitigated best mathematics experience and getting out of this false notion that math is neutral, math is non-political.
Math is everything. It has power. It can literally change the world through what we're doing in our classes. We have to get out our own personal narrative and biases and unlock the power of mathematics to change the world and to change students lives. And I say we have to unlock our biases because too many of us... I go back to that gradually. I do. We do. we're so robotic in what we do. We're not thinking about that. We think from our lens, our background. We need to put ourself in that student seat and their lens and their background and start thinking like they think and what they're going through. That's going to change how we start to present what we teach. And we start thinking through their lens, authentically learning who they are, developing relationships as we said on the top of the episode, then now we can start to unpack math in a different manner and take all of our biases out the equation, our stereotypes, and our perceptions, our believe, our expectations, and give students an authentic experience.

Jon Orr: I want to move more into a district decision making thing. You've spoken often about the importance of teacher voice. Where does systems miss the mark when it comes to structures, procedures, and processes in school, in classrooms? If a district leader's listening right now, what are some of the ways that they might be able to ensure that the importance of teacher... Our voice is important and heard in decision making at that district level?

Speaker 8: Well, I would say that there's obviously a very wide gap between what people perceive to be teacher voice versus what teacher voice can do. It's just complicated. On the one end, you do have a whole swath of teachers who actually want to improve the district through any number of different initiatives. Trying to assure that pedagogy across the board is better, more experimental, more learner centered, et cetera. And of course, there's also the stereotype of teachers who are just going to gripe about everything that you put on the table and just you don't necessarily want to from them because they leave right at the bell. There's that stereotype as well. But even within those voices, I do believe there are things that have merit. And often we need to find ways to A, check in with the folks who we do actually believe in their voices.
And because we've seen the strides they've made or the professional progress that they've made. And we also need to be very attuned to sensing voices too and understand where their gripes are coming from. What is the internal angst that's happening there? I think these are adults. And again, it's very much like students. We want to hear from the students who are doing well in our classes and the student who are struggling with our classes and why are they struggling and how can we make their experience better? We're not always going to get it 100%, which I think too many administrators do believe that they can just get it 100% just by forcing them to do so instead of trying to build that buy-in, but buy-in matters and teacher voices matter. And I think the ways that they matter are critical to ensuring that you have that liaison between the macro view that so many higher administrators have, and then the very important classroom view, which seems minuscule, but is probably the biggest deal.
It's hard because a lot of this is fraught with ego, it's fraught with personality, is fraught with just different visions for how things ought to be taught. But I think it starts with the buy-in. It starts with the relationships. It starts with getting good listening towards going... Just coming in just to listen first without projecting and maybe a real values first. And then coming in that second time and saying, "Hey, I've done some reflection and here's some points of convergence. Here's some points of divergence and how are we going to build it?" So all of our schools can perform well for all of our students, especially our most marginalized students.

Jon Orr: All right, Kyle. It was great to reflect again on these six educators that again have had such an impact on our educational journey and continue to have an impact. And it was great to hear those conversations. Again, I think it's so important for us to continue that act of reflection on a daily basis, not just this month, but on a regular basis. Hey, what have you heard here in this particular episode? Something that's going to stick with you. How are you going to capitalize on that? How are you going to think about implementing these ideas into your classroom? What are you doing do to engage so that this learning sticks?

Kyle Pearce: Yeah, absolutely. And something we talk about is, are you writing these ideas down? Are you chatting with a friend? Are you tweeting them? Whatever it is that you're doing, something I'm going to just throw out there is, if you have been doing that, we're almost three years, more than three years into this podcast. We've been telling you to reflect and do something. I'd be super curious. Now that you've heard a few of these little clips, I'm sure you've heard some of those episodes. And I'm wondering, do these messages resonate in a different way now? And if they do, that might show that you've grown. We grow over time.
Go back to some of those reflections from the past, have another look and then maybe go have another listen, and then think about your reflections now. Where were you? Where are you now? And just seeing that progress for yourself is a huge, huge reward to just show that all this time, this effort, this reflection that you put into your practice, really does pay dividends in the long run, even though sometimes it might not feel get in the moment. Make sure you go back and have a look and re-reflect on some of that thinking.

Jon Orr: Yeah. And we've included links to every episode from the six educators in our show notes page where you can find any other resources and also transcripts. From this episode, you can find there over@makemathmoments.com/episode 168. Again, that's make math moments.com/episode 168. Again, you go there and that will give you links to all six past episodes here where you heard the clips of these amazing educators.

Kyle Pearce: Awesome stuff there, John. Well, my friends, until next time, I'm Kyle Pearce.

Jon Orr: And I'm John Orr.

Kyle Pearce: High Fives for us.

Jon Orr: And high five for you.