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Episode Summary:

What does the next level of support look like in our classrooms? What should it look like to support our students? 

This episode dives deep into the world of a dedicated math interventionist who integrates specialized strategies to make math accessible and engaging for all students, especially those facing barriers like dyslexia and economic disadvantages.

Tune in to this enlightening episode to see how adapting teaching strategies can transform student engagement and success in math.

Resources:

• Assessment For Growth: A Blueprint Course For Standards Based Grading in Math Class
• Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

Attention District Math Leaders:

How are you ensuring that you support those educators who need a nudge to spark a focus on growing their pedagogical-content knowledge? 

What about opportunities for those who are eager and willing to elevate their practice, but do not have the support? 

Book a call with our District Improvement Program Team to learn how we can not only help you craft, refine and implement your district math learning goals, but also provide all of the professional learning supports your educators need to grow at the speed of their learning. 

Book a short conversation with our team now. 

Episode Summary:

Marlene’s Math Moments and Dyslexia Program

Marlene, a math intervention specialist and data coach from Ohio, shared her personal experiences and insights into making math moments engaging for students. She discussed her early struggles with math, her transition to teaching, and the importance of small group instruction for her students. Marlene also talked about her current challenges in balancing individualized attention for students with the demands of a new, intensive program focusing on dyslexia. The team expressed appreciation for Marlene’s important work and empathy for the difficulties she faces.

Addressing Student Needs in Curriculum

Marlene identified changes in the school’s student population over the past decade, particularly an increase in economically disadvantaged students and English learners. She expressed concerns about the traditional grade-level curriculum’s effectiveness in addressing these students’ skill gaps, with Jon affirming her points and emphasizing the disconnect between her remedial work and the classroom curriculum. Kyle and Jon suggested that Marlene’s focus should be on assessing student progress, setting goals, and focusing on their needs, not just the current content. Marlene agreed with this approach, recognizing the importance of a hyper-focused strategy driven by the students’ needs.

Addressing Curriculum Gaps and Time Constraints

Kyle and Marlene discussed the challenges of their roles in helping students who are behind in their curriculum grade level content. They acknowledged that the current system, with each student receiving approximately 25 minutes of support per day, is not sufficient to make significant progress. The inability to dedicate more time per student due to the high demand was identified as a major issue. The conversation also highlighted the advantage of daily interactions with students, as opposed to alternate day or weekly sessions, and the need for a fair distribution of resources and attention among students.

Balancing Personal Goals and Classroom Needs

Kyle, Marlene, and Jon discussed the challenges of balancing their personal teaching goals with the needs of their classrooms. Marlene emphasized the importance of connecting classroom activities to underlying skills, while Jon stressed the need to focus on core values as teachers. The team also discussed the use of concrete tools like popsicle sticks, hair ties, and base 10 blocks to help students understand mathematical concepts. Marlene shared her focus on number sense and operations, and the team agreed on the importance of allowing oneself to move on when the team is not ready, despite the need to repeat the same work. Marlene expressed her frustration with the team’s slow progress on team numbers, which the group agreed was necessary.

Aligning Teaching Strategies in Classrooms

Jon, Marlene, and Kyle discussed the challenges of aligning teaching strategies between classroom settings and intervention programs. Jon expressed concerns about misconceptions and inaccuracies that could arise from a lack of alignment. The team agreed on the need for educators to have the flexibility to choose the most appropriate strategy for each situation and to continuously assess and refine their strategies. Marlene shared her success in identifying and addressing ineffective strategies in her classroom, and Kyle suggested encouraging educators to develop a repertoire of strategies.

Addressing Math Interventionist Workload

Kyle and Marlene discussed the challenges Marlene was facing in balancing her role as a math interventionist and her other duties as a building math coach. Kyle suggested Marlene should have an accountability partner to remind her of her goals and approach when she feels overwhelmed. Marlene’s principal had already highlighted her tendency to take on too much. As a solution, Kyle advised Marlene to create a reminder of her primary role and responsibilities, to help her stay focused. Marlene appreciated the advice and looked forward to a follow-up mid-school year.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00:12 – 00:00:20:20
Marlene Gundlach
I went to a very small Catholic school where there’s like two classrooms for each grade level. They probably don’t even exist anymore. And so that was a very on inspiring time, wasn’t it? We didn’t have a lot of flair. There wasn’t a lot of. But when I was a sophomore in high school, I had a geometry coach, our teacher who was the wrestling coach.

00:00:20:22 – 00:00:55:13
Jon Orr
And he what does the next level of support look like in our classrooms? What should it look like to support our students in math class? This episode dives into the world of a dedicated math interventionist who integrates specialized strategies to make math accessible and engaging for all students, especially those facing barriers like dyslexia and economic disadvantages. Tune in to this episode to see how adapting teaching strategies can transform student engagement and success in math.

00:00:55:15 – 00:01:19:11
Jon Orr
Specifically, you’re going to discover innovative teaching methods for providing individualized math instruction that caters to students with unique learning needs. You’re going to learn about the practical challenges and solutions in aligning classroom strategies with intervention programs to enhance student understanding. That is a big one here. We’re going to talk about on Classroom instruction, intervention class or control tension time.

00:01:19:11 – 00:01:51:03
Jon Orr
How do we align the two? You’re going to gain insights into balancing the demands of teaching with personal and professional growth in our field. This is another math mentoring Moment episode where we chat with a teacher just like you who is working through some problems of practice, and together we brainstorm ways to overcome them.

00:01:51:05 – 00:01:55:09
Kyle Pearce
Welcome to the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. I’m Kyle Pierce.

00:01:55:09 – 00:01:58:09
Jon Orr
And I’m John or we are from that moment Dcop.

00:01:58:11 – 00:02:08:10
Kyle Pearce
This is the only podcast that coaches you through a six step plan to grow your mathematics program, whether it’s at the classroom level or at the district level.

00:02:08:11 – 00:02:23:14
Jon Orr
And we do that by helping you cultivate and foster your mathematics program like strong, healthy and balanced SRI. So if you master the six parts of an effective mathematics program, the impact that you going to have on your teachers, your students will grow and reach far and wide.

00:02:23:16 – 00:02:38:05
Kyle Pearce
Every week you’ll get the insight you need to stop feeling overwhelmed, gain back your confidence and get back to enjoying the planning and facilitating of your mathematics program for the students or the educators that you serve.

00:02:38:07 – 00:02:47:22
Jon Orr
Well, hey there, Marley, and thanks for joining us here on the Making Math’s Moments That Matter podcast. We’re pumped to talk to you. Hey, take a moment. You know, introduce yourself. Tell us where you coming from.

00:02:48:01 – 00:03:14:12
Marlene Gundlach
Well, thank you for having me. I am in central Ohio. I teach New Albany Plan local schools and the primary building, which is a one, two, three building. And I am a math intervention specialist and a data coach. So I support all three grades with tier two supports and then help with the building math data, helping teachers look at their data, how can they can use it and making it meaningful to their kind of their daily work with kids.

00:03:14:14 – 00:03:43:18
Kyle Pearce
Awesome. Awesome. That is great to hear. And my friend, everyone has an interesting math back story. And usually people when we say mathematics or math class have a moment that pops into their mind that they remember sometimes positive, sometimes negative, Sometimes it’s maybe like underwhelming. Who knows? But yeah, when we say math class to you, Marlene, what is that math moment that pops into your mind?

00:03:43:20 – 00:04:12:00
Marlene Gundlach
I went to a very small Catholic school where there’s like two classrooms for each grade level. There probably don’t even exist anymore. And so that was a very an inspiring time, wasn’t it? We didn’t have a lot of flair. There wasn’t a lot of. But when I was a sophomore in high school, I had a geometry coach, our teacher who was the wrestling coach, and he taught geometry like he was coaching wrestling and that was like a rather loud in a lot of what.

00:04:12:02 – 00:04:13:05
Jon Orr
Body slam people?

00:04:13:05 – 00:04:41:04
Marlene Gundlach
Oh my gosh. I mean, I just remember being petrified to even say anything. My my cousin happened to be in the class. She would cry like every other day. We’re like, Who’s going to love math? And I think that’s when I go into my students. Beginning of the year, I asked them, Do you like math? And I tell their parents the first goal, If we get to the end of the year and all I can say is they like math now, then I’m happy because if you not like it, it is not going to click.

00:04:41:04 – 00:04:48:22
Marlene Gundlach
You’re not going to want to spend time on it and you’re not going to have fun with it. So even though he’s like, I mean, petrified everybody.

00:04:48:24 – 00:04:50:16
Jon Orr
He petrified you into liking it.

00:04:50:16 – 00:04:53:17
Marlene Gundlach
Exactly. This is what not to do.

00:04:53:19 – 00:05:08:10
Jon Orr
Tell me more about the connection. Like that’s being your math moment. You remember it being scary, but yet now you’re a math interventionist teacher. So it’s like, does it scare you into like being like, I have to always do So grade in this subject. You all of a sudden it’s a career.

00:05:08:10 – 00:05:38:03
Marlene Gundlach
Or when I went to college, I actually was an English minor. I actually had a concentration in English. I thought I’d be an English teacher reading and writing. And then my first job was a private school where I taught split level classes. So I was teaching everything like a three fourths ia78 split later. My career. And so I think getting exposure more to math than that and having to teach different grade levels within one period kind of opened my eyes and then I stayed home with my kids for a while.

00:05:38:03 – 00:05:56:16
Marlene Gundlach
And when I went back, my first job back into the district that I’m in now was in math intervention. It just those small group moments hit me hard. I thought, okay, this is I don’t want to teach English. Who wants to grade all those writing sets for lunch? But I think it and then the small group piece of it really stuck with me.

00:05:56:22 – 00:06:27:09
Marlene Gundlach
And even when I went back in the classroom, I was big on. I always did math groups because I saw just the overwhelming sort of meaning of being able to sit with kids right across from you and the stuff that you don’t see unless you’re watching them do math. And I think that really hit me when I was first an intervention is how much you miss and whole group instruction, or if the whole class is doing a practice together, you’re not seeing those little nuances that you can see when they’re right there in front of you.

00:06:27:09 – 00:06:50:23
Marlene Gundlach
And I think we’re fighting in my building to get back to more time for math groups. Ohio has passed a dyslexia law, so it’s reading, reading, reading. We have a very intense program. We do we do bridges, and it’s an intense, time consuming program. So we’re really fighting to get that balance where we can get back to math groups because they’re just so powerful.

00:06:51:00 – 00:07:12:03
Kyle Pearce
Oh, I bet. I bet. And something that you said that resonates and I think is really important for us to always remember. I’m trying to remember the book. And John, you might remember it. I know it’s in our book list, and I can envision the cover of this book and the research around how many people could be in a group before you stop believing that.

00:07:12:09 – 00:07:37:19
Kyle Pearce
What’s being said is for you relevant. And I think it was something like the number seven comes to mind that like that group size goes beyond six. Then all of a sudden the experiments they had done, the research they had done, basically showed that as soon as you get to that group size and you start getting to now imagine 30 kids in a classroom, it’s like the teacher saying something, but it’s not for me.

00:07:37:19 – 00:07:54:00
Kyle Pearce
It’s for my students. Like the chances are I mean, that seems like a good assumption, right? As a human, you go, Well, chances are I mean, there’s 30 of us here. It’s probably not for me, but when you’re in that small group setting and you can have that eye contact and you have that closeness right, you’re right there.

00:07:54:00 – 00:08:20:07
Kyle Pearce
It’s not a very far distance between the speaker and the receiver or the listener. And you just think about how impactful and how important that is, especially when we talk about our students in Tier two and in Tier three, those students who may require that extra repetition of hearing it again or saying it’s more slowly or seeing it written down in a different way, that is a really important thing.

00:08:20:07 – 00:08:53:13
Kyle Pearce
So it sounds like the work you’re doing there is really important work and it’s great that you’re advocating for it. So I’m wondering, it sounds like I heard a pebble already around. How do you find more time for that small group? But right now, if we were to kind of take out that magic wand and we were to say, what’s that Pebble that’s kicking around in your math interventionist shoe that you wish that we could sort of pluck away and get you over that next hurdle, what would you say that struggle is right now?

00:08:53:18 – 00:09:19:16
Marlene Gundlach
Actually, what triggered it? I actually in your last summit, Dr. Nikki Newton did a session on acceleration versus remediation. And I Alec ordered her book while I was watching the sets. She did a little short session this morning. I got to have some one on one time with her, so I was a little geeked up. But I think we’ve seen our student population change the last five, ten years where I’m in a very affluent community.

00:09:19:16 – 00:09:38:16
Marlene Gundlach
But now we also have apartments propping up or we’ve got two or three families moving into an apartment together just to be able to attend our schools. And they struggle. And we’ve got our ELL population is exploding. We’ve got a lot of move in. So, I mean, I will see third graders who are like they’re on their fourth school in third grade and you’re like, how are you?

00:09:38:18 – 00:10:00:16
Marlene Gundlach
You’re getting all these different curriculums from all over the country or maybe out of the country. They don’t speak English. And my old model of I told them, my principal hired me, I will not do grade level curriculum. I they’ve got to fill gaps first. They need those underlying skills. And as our population is changing, I’m seeing it’s no longer helping them with their grade level content.

00:10:00:16 – 00:10:08:20
Marlene Gundlach
I mean, it’s confusing them. They’ll take the strategies I’m doing and kind of mix them a little bit with what their teachers tell telling them, and they’re just so confused.

00:10:08:20 – 00:10:15:21
Kyle Pearce
They’re just trying to fit thing lines and it’s almost like it’s not bridging that sort of gap as you might have thought.

00:10:15:21 – 00:10:43:07
Jon Orr
I Yeah, let me state what you just said. Just so I think I heard it correctly that you focused on trying to fill gaps of students and help them figure out where these gaps and try to help them along in their understanding. And they may be say, let’s say they are below grade level and they are still teaching, taking grade level content in their tier one class in instruction.

00:10:43:07 – 00:10:51:22
Jon Orr
And you’re saying that the gaps you’re trying to help fill is not helping them in that class? Is that is that disconnect you’re trying to you’re saying you’re feeling right now?

00:10:51:24 – 00:11:23:05
Marlene Gundlach
I just felt like like we weren’t seeing enough the skills that I was tackling, they were growing a ton, but we just weren’t seeing the growth with the grade level material because it was so disjointed. I always tried to like follow what the teachers were doing and maybe put it in my warm up. But my teaching partner and I have been just really seeing that we’ve got to put some time in to pay more attention to what you know, I can’t be doing addition and subtraction when they’re doing fractions, the kids are like denominator now.

00:11:23:07 – 00:11:31:11
Marlene Gundlach
So I think just trying to make that how I follow all the curriculum and make sure I’m matching what they’re doing right.

00:11:31:11 – 00:11:47:15
Jon Orr
So you’re just so I have the structure as well because there’s different ways to do the math. The intervention is teaching us is that they’re going to tier one and then they’re going to your class and you have like a class set time that they’re coming to you. And then is that a big group, like a normal class sized group, or is it?

00:11:47:16 – 00:12:06:10
Marlene Gundlach
It’s usually we try to cap it at five. I had some I usually do about ten groups a day, about a half an hour, and it’s maximum five kids. I pull from probably 20 different classrooms throughout the day. So that makes it hard because they’re all in different places in their curriculum. And I’m I’m trying to think of ways that I can have them communicating with me.

00:12:06:12 – 00:12:17:22
Marlene Gundlach
Where are you at? What chapter are you on? What unit are you on? So I can try to tie it all together. But yeah, they’re like they come to my little office room for about a half hour at a time every day.

00:12:17:24 – 00:12:35:13
Jon Orr
So you’re recognizing this being the pebble. This is the pebble you currently have. But because you’ve recognized it, I’m sure you’ve done something to try to figure out how do I correct this or line these two things up that I’m seeing this disconnect. So tell us what like what have you done so far?

00:12:35:15 – 00:12:52:14
Marlene Gundlach
I mentioned the class and I just tried to make my warmup match with the if I knew third grade was doing multiplications, I would do supervising with multiplication patterns or they maybe had to tell me how many groups did you see, how many circles were in each group? And we’d get a multiplication sentence or Dr. Nikki was had.

00:12:52:14 – 00:13:12:21
Marlene Gundlach
She was big on the fraction images, getting kids to just talk about fractions. And because that’s always, I think, one of our lowest scores on our third grade state testing. So I made files of those and share them with teachers and I use those as warm ups when they were in their fraction unit, but it still wasn’t enough just to do it for that five or 10 minutes.

00:13:12:21 – 00:13:15:17
Marlene Gundlach
It was still too disconnected. And so.

00:13:15:19 – 00:13:45:10
Kyle Pearce
Well, one of the things that is a struggle and you already highlighted it, so I’m not informing you of this challenge, which is when we are working towards helping students to remedy some of these challenges. What we’re up against is, of course, with every passing grade and every, let’s say, day that goes by that the student hasn’t kind of been given what they need as the next step.

00:13:45:12 – 00:14:12:16
Kyle Pearce
There’s a further and further sort of road to go. Right. And ultimately what I think can be a distraction for you, the intervention teacher who is there. And your goal is not for them to be able to at least this is in my opinion, that your goal is not to immediately be able to help them with today’s math lesson at grade level.

00:14:12:18 – 00:14:33:20
Kyle Pearce
And as you mentioned, you were saying it seems like it’s not helping them in either end. It is really for you to assess where they are as best you can, because, again, that’s very hard work to still do. But to be able to screen and you probably some sort of screener was used to get a sense of like, is there a challenge?

00:14:33:22 – 00:15:21:01
Kyle Pearce
Then we’re going to get more specific with the diagnostic around certain concepts and of course, keeping it to number sense and operation type work I think is very helpful, at least as a start, in order to avoid trying to fix everything and all the different strands, all the different areas and noting that your goal is to help them get a little better from where they are now in that particular area, which means in some ways not saying that you completely ignore that how they’re doing and how that impacts some elsewhere, but what has to drive your work is the goals that you’re setting for that student with that student and ensuring that they’re making more

00:15:21:03 – 00:15:48:13
Kyle Pearce
progress along that journey. Because what is really easy for us to do when we’re in that Tier two, Tier three sort of environment now Tier two is a little different because some, you know, oftentimes it is related to current content, but let’s say tier three, for example, where a student has significant challenges, significant gaps, you’re really trying to hyper focus on the task at hand with the time you have.

00:15:48:15 – 00:16:20:13
Kyle Pearce
And that’s the hardest part for us as humans, is that we want more time, we want more progress, we want it to happen now. But the reality is, is that we can’t get something without the adequate amount of time and effort put in and really, you have to be so extremely patient when you’re doing that work because you can’t get 20 minutes of time, let’s say a day or a week or three times a week and expect us to be able to make these massive leaps.

00:16:20:15 – 00:16:41:07
Kyle Pearce
Right. It’s just not realistic, especially when we’re dealing with a student that has not been able to sort of keep up with the curriculum grade level content all along. Right. So they’re falling further and further. So it is hard because in your mind, we want to solve all the world’s problems, but we really want to look at like what is reasonable.

00:16:41:07 – 00:16:58:24
Kyle Pearce
So I’m wondering, can we take maybe a deeper dive into for the typical student who would be in this intervention type program about how much time per week are you getting to work with that with a student, let’s say in general, I know it’s probably not exactly like.

00:16:59:01 – 00:17:06:13
Marlene Gundlach
2000 excuse me, about 30 minutes a day. So the goal is 150. It’s probably 25 minutes a day by the time we come in and chitchat.

00:17:06:15 – 00:17:08:06
Kyle Pearce
Yeah. So build relationships.

00:17:08:07 – 00:17:11:01
Marlene Gundlach
And parents are always knocking on the door. Mike. Hang on, Mom.

00:17:11:01 – 00:17:32:00
Kyle Pearce
It’s totally So now, when you think about that, though, and you go, okay, so 25 minutes, 25 minutes is not a ton of time. Now, one thing I’m going to say is an advantage that not every school district has not every intervention teacher has is the ability to see a student every day. Yeah. Is a massive, massive benefit.

00:17:32:02 – 00:17:45:02
Marlene Gundlach
One year I tried, I was by myself for quite a while in a building of over a thousand students, and I tried doing a look at the neediest candidate three days. I wanted to add two days that you miss a monday and it was awful.

00:17:45:04 – 00:17:48:21
Kyle Pearce
Like know because I know what it is. So I was just going to say and I.

00:17:49:01 – 00:17:51:23
Marlene Gundlach
Would say that my hands on more kids but.

00:17:51:23 – 00:18:15:09
Kyle Pearce
It you really can’t and that the idea of we want equality is like what hits us where like fairness, right? This idea of like everyone deserves this, every student deserves this. But then it gets so watered down in terms of the amount of opportunity that every student has that it really doesn’t do a whole lot of anything. So finding ways to have more.

00:18:15:09 – 00:18:43:04
Kyle Pearce
So I’m happy with your model. The amount of time that you have. What would you say that I’m wondering? Do you find that what you’re working on with the student, do you find that you have a hard time not getting, quote unquote distracted or maybe sidetracked as to what they might be working on in the classroom? And what I mean by that is do you find that sometimes you might find yourself hopping around to different ideas because you’re trying to accommodate the classroom?

00:18:43:04 – 00:19:17:07
Marlene Gundlach
But definitely sometimes the teachers were like, but their most recent protests in my mailbox and I’m like, I don’t want to see it because it’s bad. It’s that again, it’s that balance of my goal is always, okay, here are I kind of know what’s going on in the classroom. Here are those like achieve the core is my best friend where those underlying skills that I know they probably are missing that are making this more difficult and at least trying to tell the kids this is how this connects to what you’re doing so they at least can start to maybe see like this really does, even though it looks a little bit different than what you’re

00:19:17:07 – 00:19:27:00
Marlene Gundlach
doing, it is going to help you down the line. But they’re in for second grade like, oh, okay, it’s but they’re not old enough to to kind of make that connection and follow that.

00:19:27:00 – 00:19:58:11
Jon Orr
But and what would you say? Like think about your sometimes I like to think core values in a way, not like not like personal values, but what is it that we value as a teacher in the math content, the way you’re trying to get the students to utilize that math content. So if you think about what does it look like when you’re helping these students and where do you would you say the primary focus is during that 25 minutes on average?

00:19:58:11 – 00:20:12:22
Jon Orr
If you think about like it’s almost like like completing the phrase, like I always make sure that I work on in and not necessarily a topic, but it’s like I always make sure that this is the focus of the work that I do. In What would you say that that is?

00:20:12:24 – 00:20:31:12
Marlene Gundlach
I think it’s building meaning and making sure that through they got to be able to see it, touch it, manipulate it online. Manipulatives are not the same as people, right? Oh, you don’t need don’t just use the ones online like they have to be able to touch it and build meaning from it and have visual tools to connect it.

00:20:31:12 – 00:20:45:24
Marlene Gundlach
I mean, math has got to be you had to do it to be able to understand it and not do it like, you know, do talk problems. I don’t do any I very if I pull out a worksheet, my kids like, what are you what what’s this? We I hardly have pencils. We’re all marker board right in the table.

00:20:46:05 – 00:21:04:18
Marlene Gundlach
Get out the Play-Doh, get out the blocks and just try to always have them. Can they get an image in their mind of what they’re doing? Can they manipulate the math and become flexible with numbers? So it’s really that understanding piece, I think, which is what a lot of parents like me against. Oh, why don’t you just tell them to carry the one?

00:21:04:18 – 00:21:14:05
Marlene Gundlach
But before I get to that, they’re building that and bundling those ones and shifting that ten over. I want to get there, but they have to know the why.

00:21:14:07 – 00:21:20:10
Jon Orr
What does that look like? Like what tools are you using to do the. I’m showing them where the one is and I’m getting them to like, shift.

00:21:20:10 – 00:21:36:08
Marlene Gundlach
These usually popsicle sticks because those are easy. We eventually we moved the base. I don’t like the base ten materials at first because they’re already connected. Oh, here’s a ten stick. I use popsicle sticks and then I have hair ties and I make them pick it up and bundle it and move it out.

00:21:36:08 – 00:21:49:05
Kyle Pearce
And then there is a massive difference between group a bowl and pre grouped manipulatives when we’re talking about place value. And I just wanted to echo what you had said about the digital tools. Digital tools.

00:21:49:05 – 00:21:49:11
Marlene Gundlach
Can.

00:21:49:11 – 00:22:18:00
Kyle Pearce
Help you in some cases to show certain things that are hard to do with concrete. But for students, especially students who are tier two, Tier three that are having struggles most often, dare I say it, most often, they’re probably still at a concrete phase, like a physical concrete phase in their conceptual understanding in those concepts anyway. So it really is important.

00:22:18:00 – 00:22:27:02
Kyle Pearce
I love that’s a big win for anyone who’s got students who are struggling with place value. These ten blocks are still abstract.

00:22:27:05 – 00:22:37:14
Marlene Gundlach
I mean, even students now they use cubes. You can take them apart, put them back together, move something that they have to themselves, bundle totally getting that transition up, that concept.

00:22:37:14 – 00:22:44:03
Kyle Pearce
I do really like the wrapping though. They wrap it in like you’ve now turned this into a group of tens.

00:22:44:05 – 00:23:02:09
Marlene Gundlach
What they can wrap it so they can actually see them to the the growth from that the magnitude of the difference between a one and a 100 or a one in a ten is the base. We’ve got like the flat base ten materials now, not even the little cube ones that come with our Bridges program. So they’re really they weigh the same for the most part.

00:23:02:15 – 00:23:11:20
Marlene Gundlach
The one in the ten, the hundreds doesn’t just you don’t get that feel of the weight of the quantity and the magnitude of how much bigger a one or a 100 is.

00:23:11:22 – 00:23:12:18
Kyle Pearce
It is popsicle.

00:23:12:18 – 00:23:14:05
Marlene Gundlach
Sticks the easiest?

00:23:14:07 – 00:23:28:08
Kyle Pearce
And I’m wondering from a content perspect of do you find that you’re trying to assist in all kinds of different areas or is it mostly number and operations? What does that look like and sound like?

00:23:28:08 – 00:23:44:11
Marlene Gundlach
Yeah, it’s mostly numbers. Yeah, I don’t I mean geometry plays value or not place like geometry measurement. I don’t even touch any of that. I know it’s important, but they’re doing that type of work I can keep. But I like numbers sense and yeah, operations and problem solving.

00:23:44:13 – 00:24:12:24
Kyle Pearce
I love it. Unless and the only thing I would say is the caveat is if let’s say it’s an area problem and you’re doing it to help with multiplication because that’s a great model, you know, like so it’s like if it’s going to help with the building of the numbers, sense fluency and flexibility, I’m all for it. But it’s like I just wanted to make sure that that wasn’t one of your we’ll call it like it’s a distractor really is because we want them to be successful in all areas of mathematics.

00:24:13:01 – 00:24:38:08
Kyle Pearce
So sometimes we think, Well, I got to do a little of this and I got to do a little of that. But then again, it becomes this very broad. Very. Yes. And, you know, so I think focusing in as you are is huge. And I guess I’m wondering is like based on the time that you have, are you seeing some progress if you just look at the concepts that you’re working on students on do you?

00:24:38:09 – 00:24:58:05
Marlene Gundlach
Yeah, hundred percent, yeah. In particular, you can see that growth like when we progress monitor them, when we benchmark them even on things like their math test, because I think the map test is a better picture than the state test because that is starting them at their level where state test you’re getting the third grade test, but you might be working at a first or second grade level in math.

00:24:58:06 – 00:25:04:13
Kyle Pearce
You’re totally right. You could do intervention work for two years and they might not change their overall.

00:25:04:15 – 00:25:05:03
Marlene Gundlach
Score.

00:25:05:04 – 00:25:08:18
Kyle Pearce
On a grade level test if they’re multiple grade levels behind.

00:25:08:24 – 00:25:09:18
Marlene Gundlach
That’s why it’s not going.

00:25:09:18 – 00:25:10:16
Kyle Pearce
To show up.

00:25:10:18 – 00:25:32:13
Marlene Gundlach
Yeah, it’s of their level. You can actually see the grow. So my kids do make tremendous growth on math and such. Some of the benchmark assessments that are focused on what we’re doing. So I think that I mean, the manipulatives, they it works. It’s just then figuring out one, convincing teachers it works and getting out, manipulate some more.

00:25:32:13 – 00:25:49:05
Marlene Gundlach
It’s hard for a whole group. That’s when the virtual mallet manipulatives maybe are some of your kids are on virtual and some of your kids that need it have got the blocks out. But I think it’s encouraging teachers that it’s worth that time to drag out those stinky blocks and put them on the big pile and do something.

00:25:49:07 – 00:26:24:02
Kyle Pearce
So based on what I’m hearing, I’m hearing that there’s a lot of really good things going on. So I want to come back to because this is very common when we say our pebble and then we dig deeper. And then what I’m hearing is your pebble. I wonder what’s the real pebble than that You’re because what I heard you say is that based on how you are doing this work with your students and focusing on the growth that you the direct impact that you can have in this room on this content and helping students along that journey.

00:26:24:02 – 00:26:45:13
Kyle Pearce
And you’re actually seeing it in other assessments as well. So I’m wondering what’s your real pebble that you’re kind of grappling with? Is it the fact that you just want it faster, you just want to see students successful quicker, or is it something deeper that maybe.

00:26:45:15 – 00:27:06:15
Marlene Gundlach
I’m usually I see there’s the word usually pretty patient in it. But I do think there are times where I’m like, Holy moly, we’ve been doing teen numbers for two weeks now and I’m going to put my balls out and you don’t have but and making myself maybe move on for a bit, like look at my partner and I was like, When do we just go, okay, enough’s enough, let’s move on.

00:27:06:19 – 00:27:24:22
Marlene Gundlach
And you get you do get stuck in that like, No, I am not leaving. We are going to build up until we’re blue in the face because they don’t get it yet. And having that, just giving myself permission to go, okay, I’ve done what I can. Now we got to move on. They just might not they’re not ready for it.

00:27:24:24 – 00:27:39:02
Marlene Gundlach
And if I can build it four weeks in a row and they’re not ready, and seeing that and giving myself permission to go, that’s okay, let’s move on. So, yeah, that is hard because you’re like, No, they don’t have it. I can’t keep it.

00:27:39:04 – 00:27:39:22
Jon Orr
So it’s.

00:27:39:24 – 00:27:41:06
Kyle Pearce
It’s like I finality.

00:27:41:06 – 00:28:09:02
Jon Orr
Of it. What I just heard is your pebble is actually like giving yourself permission, that you are doing everything in a really effective way. And we would agree and that sometimes we just have to say like I need to not put any more faults on what’s happening here. I know that this is working and it’s just like not working to a standard that someone else has set that we’re trying to get these kids to.

00:28:09:03 – 00:28:34:12
Jon Orr
And it’s like the only thing I can think of is like because it sounds like you’re doing all the right things in the right ways. You know, you’re using models using strategies. You’re, you know, you’re focusing on the number sense and not jumping around as much as, say, someone else might be. The only thing that is how much alignment is happening between you and the classroom teacher around those same models in strategies.

00:28:34:12 – 00:29:09:13
Jon Orr
Because if the teacher doesn’t value or understand the models, the strategies that you’re using, and then they’re seeing that actually because let’s say you’re pairing your strategies selection, if you think about a unit that you’re helping a student through and you’re going, what is the underlying model that’s really effective in the strategies for this unit? And every day you’re doing 25 minutes on different strategies that can help them proceed through that unit to kind of build their number sense required to be successful in those areas.

00:29:09:15 – 00:29:19:04
Jon Orr
And that’s really the same realm as with the units happening in the classroom and it’s kind of like but if the teacher, let’s say a teacher doesn’t, you.

00:29:19:04 – 00:29:25:19
Marlene Gundlach
Can’t assume everybody’s a math nerd and they see it the way I see it or they understand why I.

00:29:25:21 – 00:29:49:03
Jon Orr
We brought this up on the last podcast, too, is that sometimes this happens when a teacher doesn’t know about models and strategies, and they they can’t when they look at the solution and they’re like, That’s not what I made, that’s the solution. And then it’s like, if they don’t understand how it’s connected, they might get wrong. So my wonder is maybe this is your next step is to go.

00:29:49:05 – 00:30:15:06
Jon Orr
I’m doing everything here to build the right number sense to make models and strategies. Can I in some fashion try to make that more in alignment with what’s happening in the Tier one instruction so that there’s that blend between what’s happening with you and what’s happening with that. And I know you said you mentioned something about like trying to get the manipulatives out in the room, but it’s like nuggets of information.

00:30:15:06 – 00:30:20:11
Jon Orr
Like, I think it’s like it’s a long journey to, like, try to help another educator make those connections.

00:30:20:11 – 00:30:24:00
Marlene Gundlach
When I’m teaching all day and I don’t have time to meet with them, right?

00:30:24:03 – 00:30:46:24
Jon Orr
But it’s like, yeah, where does that alignment happen and where’s the and where is the school’s priority on trying to align what’s happening here? Because we would say we need alignment happen to go from your level up instead of from top level down, right? So because you’re working on models and strategies that have proven to be effective for students to learn and not go straight to the algorithm.

00:30:46:24 – 00:31:12:09
Jon Orr
So maybe your next steps are to try to see how much alignment could happen or spill over into or get students to bring those tests after so that you can look at and go, well, maybe like this was marked, you showed this way, but this is actually really great thinking, giving kids the feedback that they need and trying some way to make more of an alignment between you and the teacher.

00:31:12:09 – 00:31:40:23
Marlene Gundlach
Yeah, I have been fortunate. We on Fridays, we do something called bite sized PD like optional Friday morning PDS and I do a lot of those sessions with on things like multisensory math and different strategies and warm ups that they can use. And towards the end of the year, I noticed Bridges does this bizarre kind of break apart to add strategy for larger numbers and my students who try to use it, their lines are all crossing and it doesn’t work for subtraction with regrouping.

00:31:41:00 – 00:31:59:12
Marlene Gundlach
So I taught them a different way to do it using expanded form and adding it that way. And then I went to team meetings and said, I really think we need to get rid of this break apart with all the little carrots up and down and trees everywhere. And can we try this stretch? It’s going to work for everybody.

00:31:59:14 – 00:32:17:13
Marlene Gundlach
Sometimes it’s good for everybody, even if it only works for my little kids that are working with me. It’s still going to work for those average students and they’re going to build meaning. So that’s something that just towards the end of the year, I’m like, You know what, next year I think we need to scrap that strategy and replace it with this strategy.

00:32:17:13 – 00:32:35:08
Marlene Gundlach
I told the third grade teachers the same thing, just to kind of try to see if we can get some if there’s a better way to do it. You don’t necessarily need all the books. Tell me to do it this way. Well, if you’re seeing those ramifications down the line that it’s not effective. We have to have enough guts to go this way.

00:32:35:08 – 00:32:37:21
Marlene Gundlach
I don’t know. The book is working. We got to change it.

00:32:37:23 – 00:32:38:23
Kyle Pearce
Yeah, And try one.

00:32:38:23 – 00:32:39:14
Marlene Gundlach
Strategy.

00:32:39:14 – 00:33:07:07
Kyle Pearce
At least worth a discussion, I think. And maybe this is more of like an in between. Maybe people might be open to It is first and foremost. I think having multiple strategies is helpful because then some students can maybe grasp one to start and maybe we want them to have some flexibility with the strategies. So I wonder if it’s if, say, that strategy is falling apart at some point, why and where?

00:33:07:07 – 00:33:26:14
Kyle Pearce
And is there something that maybe we could do? Because while I don’t know this and we would have to dig deeper here, but for example, if a teacher says, well, the book’s telling me to do it that way, my first wonder is my first concern is are they trying to mimic a strategy? And they’re not even flexible with the strategy themselves.

00:33:26:14 – 00:33:53:20
Kyle Pearce
And if that’s the case, then it’s actually not going to be helpful because you’re going to try to get kids to procedurals. What is a strategy? And strategies are really supposed to be there to kind of take them out when they make sense. And some strategies lend themselves to certain situations really easily. So for example, in number talks, you’ll find that compensation is one of these strategies that comes up early and it comes up often.

00:33:53:20 – 00:34:18:13
Kyle Pearce
But what you’re going to notice is that a lot of students will rely only on that strategy. And when you get in this other situation, sometimes compensation is not that helpful and that a different strategy is actually more helpful. And that’s kind of the whole purpose of that fluency and flexibility. So I wonder if that could be maybe a start is trying to figure out, well, if it’s if students are struggling with this strategy at certain points, like why is that?

00:34:18:13 – 00:34:38:19
Kyle Pearce
Why do we think that is? Maybe we need to as a team, we need to better understand the strategy ourselves. And then here’s this other strategy and maybe some of the learning we can do as educators. We can go, When does this strategy seem to make more sense and when does this one maybe seem to be more make more sense or be more?

00:34:38:19 – 00:35:01:16
Kyle Pearce
We’ll call it efficient if we use that that word, right? So those are some maybe thoughts there, because what I try to at least nudge people away from doing is trying to pick a strategy and then kind of going all in on it for everyone. Now, I understand in tier two and three, you’re not going to be able to get your Tier two and three students to know four different strategies.

00:35:01:16 – 00:35:18:15
Kyle Pearce
That’s the goal is we want to help them get a strategy. But for students in Tier one, we don’t want it to be like an all in or an all out on a strategy. But we do need to figure out like, where is it falling apart? And if we’re only teaching one in tier one, then that’s problematic in and of itself.

00:35:18:15 – 00:35:37:17
Kyle Pearce
Like are we actually that could be sending more students to a tier two or tier three if they aren’t finding, use or making use of that one strategy. So I’m wondering, we chatted a lot about a few things that were on your mind. And as John said, I want to reiterate, it sounds like you’ve got a lot of really good things going on.

00:35:37:17 – 00:36:10:14
Kyle Pearce
And one thought I have is the work that you’re doing with your students is like really being aware of what’s happening everywhere is important, but then not allowing it to impact what you know is right, Right. What you know you need to do for that student at that time. And I think sometimes just hearing that from other people and it might be relying on a colleague you trust to have this conversation with can go far because if you are trying to be all things to all people, I’m trying to help this teacher get through that concept with these students.

00:36:10:14 – 00:36:36:17
Kyle Pearce
And I’m trying to now we’re jumping around and we’re actually being less effective. So it sounds like you’ve got the right goals and you’ve got the right mindset. I’m wondering just having that accountability partner to kind of remind you, you know, when you start to doubt yourself or start to doubt the strategy in terms of your approach on what you’re teaching, that could be a really big sort of help to keep you on track and do the work that you can do.

00:36:36:22 – 00:36:59:01
Kyle Pearce
And unfortunately, being patient is really hard. And you have to remind yourself, people have to remind you that no one I’ve never seen let’s put it this way, I’ve never seen a student in tier two or Tier three that like everything was fixed within a year. And actually very rarely do you ever see a student go through the entire program over multiple years where suddenly they’re just like right back on track.

00:36:59:07 – 00:37:27:19
Kyle Pearce
It’s going to be a long term challenge for those students, given whatever the situation is, why they’re there or what happens. So give yourself that grace. And with this, I’m wondering, I want to flip it back to you. You know, what would you say is maybe your big takeaway from today or something that you’re going to think on a little more as you kind of continue doing this work and try to continue being the best version of your interventionist self that you can be?

00:37:27:21 – 00:37:47:04
Marlene Gundlach
Yeah, I think really do. And I have my principal has told me this before. I try to be the building math coach because I’m I’m sort of like all the kids. Oh, that’s the math lady, you know, she’s the math lady. And I think I really have to stay in my 20 square feet more and not. I’m like, Well, that class has got those two kids that were on the bubble.

00:37:47:04 – 00:38:11:09
Marlene Gundlach
We didn’t pick them up. I need to check their DNA and check with their teacher or this teacher I see is using Minneapolis way too long. Sometimes I do need to put my blinders on and go, I am not a math coach. I love helping teachers. I love doing PD with them. But sometimes I have to just kind of block that out and worry about my 20 square feet, my 50 kids that I work with, and then if a teacher comes to me, I’m looking for what do you need help with?

00:38:11:09 – 00:38:24:05
Marlene Gundlach
Look, wait and sit back. And if somebody comes to me and they need support, maybe provide it then so that I’m not driving myself crazy trying to fix the world of math in my building.

00:38:24:07 – 00:38:29:17
Jon Orr
Would you say that’s your big takeaway from today, realizing that, or is there an. Yeah, you know, Yeah.

00:38:29:19 – 00:38:40:10
Marlene Gundlach
100%. Yeah. I’m being like my principles. Like you’re trying to do too much. You’re not math total like I know but we don’t have much at MIT. It’s response So yeah.

00:38:40:12 – 00:39:05:08
Kyle Pearce
The only thing I’m going to encourage you to do because I think what you’re saying is you had mentioned like trying to stay in your 20 square foot spot. And that’s a good way to not get distracted. But I would argue that something that would be better for everyone, including you, is doing what you’re doing, getting out of there and being that positive math person in the building.

00:39:05:10 – 00:39:25:04
Kyle Pearce
But when you get back to business to do the work that you are supposed to do and you get back into that seat, maybe having a message somewhere, if it’s on your desk, if it’s in your planner, something that when you sit down, you get in the habit, you sit down in this desk and you remind yourself of what you aspire to do in that 20 square feet.

00:39:25:04 – 00:39:45:06
Kyle Pearce
But yeah, I wouldn’t say staying in there all day is what you want to do, because guess what? You’re probably having a massive impact. Even just being out in the building and sort of sharing the math love and people calling you the math lady and people seeing you that way. Like that’s a really good thing. And it’s hard to measure what that might be doing in your building.

00:39:45:08 – 00:40:04:15
Kyle Pearce
But I think taking you and then keeping you in your box to try to keep you focus, I’m like, there’s got to be a better way where you can do both. But still, when you sit down at that desk that you go, okay, a reminder could be a one liner of what am I here to do, what I’m or maybe it’s on a strip of paper and you tape it to the side of the desk that’s facing towards you.

00:40:04:15 – 00:40:19:11
Kyle Pearce
So when you sit down with the students, you see that message. What’s that message going to say to you as to what your goal is with those kids there? And that way you don’t have to necessarily become the math hermit either. You don’t want to see you doing that.

00:40:19:11 – 00:40:38:03
Marlene Gundlach
Yeah, that would drive me crazy, too, because I like I figured if you help teachers, you’re helping. If I can support one teacher, I’m supporting 25 kids that maybe I don’t get to work with. So I think that’s always my like, if I can help them, they can help their kids. And then by virtue, I’m helping everybody. I just need more time in the day.

00:40:38:05 – 00:40:39:06
Marlene Gundlach
I want to be at working longer.

00:40:39:06 – 00:40:42:22
Jon Orr
But Marlee, we want to thank you for chatting with us here.

00:40:42:24 – 00:40:45:04
Marlene Gundlach
Thank you and enjoyable. I appreciate it.

00:40:45:06 – 00:40:58:07
Jon Orr
We always want to check in so hopefully we can reconnect in, you know, sometime next year, next school year, and see if that pebble’s kind of shaken sideways. Maybe like smaller. Yeah.

00:40:58:09 – 00:40:59:07
Marlene Gundlach
San I’m sure.

00:40:59:07 – 00:41:04:03
Jon Orr
Morocco sure. Yeah. And I’m sure another one will get in there and rattle around.

00:41:04:03 – 00:41:05:08
Marlene Gundlach
So teaching.

00:41:05:10 – 00:41:08:02
Jon Orr
We’ll talk about it then to you. So thanks again for joining us.

00:41:08:06 – 00:41:10:03
Marlene Gundlach
Thank you.

00:41:10:05 – 00:41:38:19
Jon Orr
All right, there you have it. Hope you enjoyed the conversation with Marlene. I know that Marlene is such a dedicated educator into her craft. After we got off the recording, she articulated about the dedication that she has to her classroom, the students that she’s working with on a regular basis. But she also kind of said, which I thought was a great takeaway for me and Kyle, was that she specifically was like, Hey, guys, talking to you was just like us just to have the conversation in the lunchroom.

00:41:38:19 – 00:42:08:01
Jon Orr
And I thought that was a great takeaway for us. And I wonder what your takeaway from this episode. What would it be? What would you say that takeaway is? For me, I think specifically other than our lunch room conversation being a takeaway, but specifically about Marlene situation, I know that a pebble in many teacher’s shoes or many interventionist teacher’s shoes is trying to align what’s happening in the classroom with what we’re trying to do to support students outside the classroom.

00:42:08:06 – 00:42:40:20
Jon Orr
Sometimes there’s a mismatch there and where we see the alignment and where we see the essential strategies, the models in taking that step to try to create that alignment will be key. And I think that’s a great step that Marlene is thinking about that we all should be thinking about, because when that alignment happens, that’s when you start to see that the changes, because now we’re aligning the models, the strategies that we want to see in our classrooms, focusing on number sets, number sets and fluency maybe outside the classroom, but we got to bring that into Tier one as well.

00:42:40:20 – 00:42:59:19
Jon Orr
So what’s your big takeaway hit us up on all social media platforms? We’d love to hear about it. So if you’re over on X Rhett app, make math moments, send us a message. Tell us what your takeaway from this episode was. Get into our Facebook group Math More makers K to 12. Get over there. Let us know what your takeaway was.

00:42:59:19 – 00:43:20:22
Jon Orr
We’d love to hear about it. You’re watching this on YouTube. Leave a comment right now. Over on YouTube, folks, this was episode 294. And if you want to get any of the links we talked about here, get on over to make math moments dot com for it’s episode 294. And hey, we love to see you in the next episode.

00:43:20:22 – 00:43:35:17
Jon Orr
We put them out every Monday morning. If you’re listening to us on Monday morning, hey, have a great Monday and we’ll see you next Monday. If you’re listening to us midweek, hey, then we’re going to encourage you to hit the subscribe button so that you don’t find a monday morning when we have a new episode, Hit the follow up button.

00:43:35:20 – 00:43:37:01
Jon Orr
Take care, folks.

00:43:37:03 – 00:43:41:13
Kyle Pearce
All right. Their math moment makers. Until next time. I’m Kyle.

00:43:41:13 – 00:43:48:09
Jon Orr
Pierce. And I’m John or. High fives for us. And a high bar for you.

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