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How can we reimagine high school math to truly prepare students for the real world? 

Hear from Kevin Dykema and Latrenda Knighten, two NCTM presidents, one past and one current, who are leading the charge to make math relevant, revitalized, and engaging.

High school math often feels disconnected from students’ futures, leaving many wondering, “Why do we need this?” This episode dives into the practical steps educators and leaders can take to transform math classrooms into spaces where every student feels the relevance and power of mathematics.

• Discover actionable strategies from Kevin Dykema, past NCTM president, and Latrenda Knighten, current NCTM president, on making math meaningful for all students.

• Learn how the High School Mathematics Reimagined framework connects courses and builds coherence across the curriculum.

• Get inspired by leadership advice on rolling out changes that elevate math instruction without overwhelming teachers or leaders.

Press play now to learn how you can make high school math a transformative experience for every student—starting today!

Resources:

• Register for the Make Math Moments Virtual Summit
• Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

Attention District Math Leaders:

Not sure what matters most when designing math improvement plans? Take this assessment and get a free customized report: https://makemathmoments.com/grow/ 

Ready to design your math improvement plan with guidance, support and using structure? Learn how to follow our 4 stage process. https://growyourmathprogram.com 

Looking to supplement your curriculum with problem based lessons and units? Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Jon Orr
Hey there, Latrenda and Kevin, thanks for joining us here on the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. We are excited to dig into the conversation with you two—two NCTM presidents in the same room, Kyle. I don’t know if we’ve ever done this before.

Kyle Pearce
Yes, yes, you might have to articulate—how is that possible? There are two presidents? But we’ll let you elaborate on that in a moment. How are you and where are you coming to us from? Let’s start with Kevin, a returning guest, and then we will flip over to Latrenda.

Jon Orr
Yeah.

Kevin Dykema
Hi, so I’m Kevin Dykema, currently the past president of NCTM. My term ended at the end of September. I’m coming to you today from Fort Worth, Texas. I don’t live there—I just happen to be visiting and doing a speaking engagement at a conference there. Normally, I live in Southwest Michigan.

Jon Orr
Awesome. Latrenda, how you doing?

Latrenda Knighten
I am doing well today. I am in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and I’m the current president—almost two weeks now, I think—of NCTM. Like I said, I’m coming from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and we’re having some unseasonal weather, at least in the mornings, for the first couple of hours. So, I’m excited.

Jon Orr
Yeah.

Kyle Pearce
Well, thank you both for spending some time here with us today. You know what? You look great, considering we just came out of the NCTM and NCSM Conference Weeks. I know how very, very exhausting that can be, even for just attendees. I was helping on the NCSM side of things, and there was a lot of chaos—good chaos—going on.

Jon Orr
What a whirlwind.

Kyle Pearce
So thank you for joining us on the show. Latrenda, you are new to the show, so we would love to start this conversation off with your math moment that you remember when you think of math class. Share with the audience what pops into your mind, and we’d love to dig in from there.

Latrenda Knighten
Okay, well, thank you so much for asking that question. I listened to a couple of your previous broadcasts to hear about other folks’ math moments. I love all of my teachers and my experience as a K-12 student, but when I think about my math moments as a student, they were not extremely memorable in the most positive way.

I enjoyed math class most of the time, but I don’t remember math being taught the way we approach it now. However, one memory stands out and had a profound impact on me, especially as a teacher. It wasn’t until I became a teacher that I fully appreciated it.

As a child, I loved to read anything you put in front of me. I remember the Scholastic book orders where I would choose all the books I wanted, and my mother would usually approve. But one time, she made a choice for me—a problem-solving math book. I was upset because it wasn’t what I wanted. She explained that it was recommended to enrich me based on my aptitude, and that’s why she selected it.

I reluctantly started using the book, and to my surprise, I loved it. It was this little orange book that I kept forever. I hated to admit that my mother was right, but I couldn’t stop solving the puzzles over and over again. It wasn’t the way math was taught to me in school, but it completely changed how I saw math.

When I became a teacher, I made a promise to always incorporate those types of activities in my classroom. That book showed me there was a different way to experience math, even though my school experience didn’t reflect it.

Jon Orr
Isn’t that just the way it goes? Parents or teachers make a choice for you, and you resist, only to realize later that they were right.

Kyle Pearce
Exactly.

Jon Orr
Kevin, last time you were with us, your math moment was about something pretty common we’ve heard on the show—memorization games. You mentioned excelling at it but realizing later that it wasn’t the best way to learn. What would you say is a math moment that’s resonated with you more recently?

Kevin Dykema
A year ago, I had the opportunity to sit in a kindergarten classroom with a very experienced teacher. She asked a simple math question, and instantly every child raised their hand. It amazed me because, as a middle school teacher, I rarely get that level of enthusiasm.

The first student she called on talked about breakfast, the second about the bus ride. It wasn’t about math—they just wanted to talk! That moment was eye-opening. It reminded me of the incredible foundational work elementary teachers do to help kids understand what it means to participate in a classroom.

As a secondary teacher, I gained a deep appreciation for how much effort goes into teaching those social and academic skills. It’s easy to overlook, but it’s critical.

Kyle Pearce
For sure. What also struck me about your story is the innate desire kids have to communicate. As math becomes more complex, classrooms often get quieter, and participation drops.

Latrenda, your math moment resonates with this idea. That little orange book showed you what math could be versus what you experienced. These reflections lead us perfectly into your new book, Reimagining High School Mathematics.

Why high school math? Why this book, and why now? I have some ideas, but I’d love to hear from you both. Let’s start with you, Latrenda.

Tell us a little bit about the book and why is now the time to be addressing some of these key issues in high school.

Latrenda Knighten

Thank you. Well, you know, unfortunate as it is, we know you just mentioned, Kyle, how it’s very different. And Kevin did as well. When we see the level of engagement, the level of participation, when we move from K5 or some, well, really probably K5 to 612. And sometimes, you know, maybe there are a couple, you know, middle school classrooms that are similar to that K5 experience.

And so we wonder, you know, what’s happening? Well, unfortunately, for quite a long time, high school has not been what it needed to be for a lot of students and not just students who someone would say, for the struggling students, for a lot of students, it was not the experience that it needed to be. They didn’t see the relevance in the mathematics they were learning.

in class, they definitely were not engaged in what they were learning. They weren’t making connections. And most importantly, when they left our safety of that K-12 environment, they weren’t seeing a connection to things that they were going to actually pursue in their future careers. So we have to reimagine that space for students and think about what are those components that we need to have in place?

to have them see the relevance. How does this connect to something that happens in the real world? So that means changing the script and having different things in those classrooms. So having a more inclusive view of what mathematics is. It shouldn’t be just a narrow view. It’s just this trajectory. And if you don’t fit on this train, you know, this is not for you. Math.

Math is for everyone. There’s not a single person in this world who does any job who does not use math on a daily basis. So they need to see that it’s relevant. And so we want to make sure that we reimagine that space, but we put some structures in place so that students can see that coherence and we can help our teachers to build in that coherence, connectedness and have those common themes interwoven throughout their entire high school career.

Jon Orr

Yeah, it’s, think, I think it’s such an important time to do this, you know, and to make these shifts. And it’s, it’s like, we should have been doing this before, but you’re right. Like we, we, this is why we need this now. Like we need to think about high school mathematics and Kevin, like you’re in your NCTM president’s address at the, the annual conference this year, you, you said something that really stuck with me that I think actually is, is, is really important for teachers and, leaders to hear. And you said like, you know,

Principles to action has been around 10 years, like it’s the 10 year anniversary. And it’s like, it’s like your book, I think some people, when people get new resources, it’s like, my gosh, there’s more to do. Like what else do I have to put on my plate or what else do I have to now consider in my, in my roles? But you, you had said something really profound. It’s like, there’s nothing new going on here that principles to action essentially doesn’t say we should do. It’s like, those are still the eight effective teaching practices. Do you want to speak a little bit more to how that and how it relates to the book?

Kevin Dykema

Yeah, I think when we think about the book and the writing team that put the high school mathematics reimagined together, it was built on all of the work that we’ve been doing as a math education field. And I think, John, you know, so often we get a new resource and people say, time to move away from the old stuff, focus in on this. We need to keep going. We know those eight effective teaching practices are still the eight effective teaching practices. We need to keep going with that with catalyzing change.

There’s the four questions that we should all be considering in the four key recommendations. Those four key recommendations aren’t going anywhere. We look at this new resource, this building on all of the prior work, and it’s that next step. It’s recognizing that we need to continually look at what can we do to better meet the needs of every single student? What can we do so that students leave our K-12 space, our high school space in this case, recognizing that mathematics is useful?

Mathematics is not just a series of procedures to memorize and then memorize a new set of procedures. As LaTrenta said, you know, we want our students to see those connections between those different things. So we’re trying to continually get that message. We’re not saying, scrap everything you have been doing. It’s time to refocus. It’s time to consider those eight effective teaching practices. What can we do to revitalize our instruction to use those eight practices? What can we continue to think about in terms of those four essential key recommendations from the catalyzing change?

And we look at this as this is building. This is the next step. Let’s keep going with the work and let’s not off. Let’s not let off that gas pedal.

Kyle Pearce

I love it. And know, principles to action has had a massive impact on not only how I saw mathematics in my own classroom, but it was really imperative in my work as a district leader. And the, I guess the sad reality is the fact that it has been 10 years and these are big ideas. These are big shifts. And I love that you’re reiterating.

the fact that this is building on those ideas. These are not new ideas and it’s about going deeper. So I wonder, and I’d like to frame this for both of you, but we’ll start with Latrenda. What would you say in this book was the biggest, you know, sort of value add for the community, for that mathematics education community to help?

grow and help to work towards doing some of these things that we know we should be doing from principles to actions, but we might not be seeing the traction yet in the secondary classroom as we would like to see it.

Latrenda Knighten

So I’m going to say there are two things. And for someone who spent the bulk of my teaching career working with elementary teachers and with students, and then the last 10 years working with all aspects, K-12, one of the things that I like about high school reimagined, revitalized, and relevant is we introduce our teachers, our educators, to five cross-cutting concepts.

So we’re taking these five themes, these five ideas, and we’re actually talking about how these can show, you can utilize them across all the courses in high school. You I remember when I was in school, you know, it’s like there were these courses for these kids, these courses for these kids. And there were some things that some students never got to experience because someone thought.

that this was not for them. And so what you find is in those five cross-cutting concepts, it doesn’t take away the fact that you’re using those research-informed effective teaching practices from principles to actions. But now I’m looking at, these are some habits of mine. And so when I’m in the algebra classroom, this is something that happens with this cross-cutting concept. When I move to geometry,

I’m still exploring that same cross-cutting concept, but I’m connecting it to that content. Same thing with data science and data literacy. So now I feel some of coherence that maybe people didn’t feel among the high school courses that have an opportunity to see that because now it doesn’t matter what pathway a student chooses.

they are going to experience those five cross-cutting concepts. So they’re making connections from year to year, and they’re seeing connections between those courses and how this relates. And I think taking also those mathematical modeling and statistical processes and actually amping those up a bit, you see some familiar things in there from the eight mathematical practices.

that most people have adopted in whatever iteration of the standards they’re using. But you see four common themes there, and then those practices are grouped there. So now we’re really looking at where’s the real world aspect? How are we making connections? How is it relevant? Because now they’re in tasks that make sense to them, is relevant, is connected to things that happen. So I think this is a value add that we’ve added

that language to the vernacular that is principles to actions, the vernacular that is the four recommendations from Catalyzing Change, and just giving high school those coherence pieces that I don’t think we’ve seen in those courses just for a long time.

Jon Orr

Right. Yeah, no, I agree. I think those five are huge, especially if you’re huge to bring them together, right? And also give ammo. It’s like you’re giving ammo for all those teachers who are still seeing that, you know, like when kids ask the common question, like, why are we learning this? Like it gives them more ammo in their buckets. I don’t know if that’s a thing, buckets and ammo. don’t know.

Kyle Pearce

I don’t know where you store it. I mean, it’s up to you.

Jon Orr

What I mean, like I sometimes I just say phrases that don’t make sense. But but it’s like you’re giving those teachers like there’s there’s commonality here. But also when you say like, why are we doing this? You’re like, because we’re talking about functional and structural thinking like that is an important component of what we’re doing across all of our courses here in high school. And this is an important idea about why we make decisions and how do we make decisions. So I completely agree that that these five like add a huge value into structure.

for our educators. Kevin, I’m gonna toss it to you and I want you to think about the leadership side of things for a moment. think about how are we, so we’ve got these five say cross-cutting strategies and these concepts. How do you see this rolling out for practicing classroom teachers who rarely get their hands on a book like this? you’ve got leaders who are leading the charge, like Kyle said, like it was in

It was so important to have principles to action for him to help him structure what was rolling out in his district. How do you see this kind of rolling out for for schools across North America and the world?

Kevin Dykema

Yeah, and I recognize, you know, different schools have different structures and you know, when you’re working with a district that may have one high school, the way it rolls out may be little different than a district that has 25 high schools. So there’s gonna be lot of differences. But I really see it, you know, the whoever’s in charge of mathematics, whether it’s a K-12 director, a 9-12 director, an assistant superintendent of whatever, they need to make themselves familiar with the book and then start working with educators. Say, all right.

Hey, we have these new five cross cutting concepts. Those who are teaching ninth graders, where are you seeing these five cross cutting concepts? Those who are teaching grade 10, where are you seeing these five cross cutting concepts? And start to bring them to bite sized chunks and have the educators start to look for some of those connections. I know when I got the first draft of these five cross cutting concepts, there was eye opening for me. And I thought, I had never recognized that some of the stuff that I’ve always taught in eighth grade.

is really connected to this and really connected to this. So we talk about it terms of the students, but I think it’s gonna be just as eye-opening for many educators that we’re gonna start to see some of the coherence within mathematics. We’re gonna see how some of those things are really developed. So I think a first step is get working with the teachers. NCTM has provided some resources to assist with that. nctm.org slash hsreimagined.

We have some blank templates, we have some filled in templates. So there’s some of the stuff there recognizing that math leaders are very, very busy. But I think it’s time to not just keep talking about what we need to do, but start getting to work. Start putting groups of teachers together and look at those five cross-cutting concepts and how they’re developed. Take a look at those 11 mathematical and structural processes that Latrena talked about, arranged in the four different clusters. Start talking about where are we seeing those in our classrooms? Where should we be seeing those in our classrooms?

Where can we really increase the amount of mathematical and statistical modeling? And as leaders, I think we need to provide examples for our teachers. So often I know I sit in a professional development session, get all excited, and then I go back to my class and I think, how in the world does this look for me? And I think as leaders, when we start to provide a couple of concrete examples of this is what we mean when we say do this, it helps the teacher and they can say, all right, let’s put it into action.

There’s lots of ways that I’m excited to see the impact that this document’s gonna have on the student experiences. just to see where math education goes in the next three, five, 10 years.

Kyle Pearce

100%, 100%. And we will be putting links to the book inside. actually, Latrenda, it sounds like you’re excited to kind of build on that. So go ahead, please do.

Latrenda Knighten

So good. Now, I just wanted to say, when we’re talking about high school and we’re talking about just how, why this book is different, when you think about the elementary classroom, you teach a little within multiple domains. So there’s some algebraic reasoning. You’re teaching geometry, you’re teaching data, you’re teaching, you know, those basic things with place value. So we do a snippet of

multiple domains. And what I found when I switched to work in a district level, like sometimes teachers for no fault of their own, because they only teach one course, so I’m only focusing on algebra, they either forget or they don’t know how that connects to something that happened in another domain or another course. So a lot of times our teachers is not because they don’t want to.

It’s because they have been in one place and we don’t have structures in place a lot of times for them to talk across domains. Like how many times do the algebra teachers talk to the geometry teachers and talk about how do you build on this or make connections? So I’m hoping that those type of discussions are going to take place on the high school campus because I don’t think it’s teachers are working hard. They’re doing the best with what they have.

But if you don’t know that these two things are connected, you won’t see it. But now we’re making it really explicit for them because we’re helping them think about it moves from here to there. But this is how it looks in this course. This is how it looks in that course. And I think that was something I experienced with working with all teachers in the last couple of years that for no fault of their own, they just don’t know of it because they’re in that bubble.

Kyle Pearce

100%. I love it. And you know, so I’m thinking about this, we will be putting the link to the book in the show notes. So people should definitely be checking that out and taking a peek. But I’m wondering from both of you, and I’ll start with Kevin here too, before we sign off, I want you to imagine that, you know, we have a lot of leaders. I’d like to say whether they’re in the classroom or not, folks who are listening to a math podcast about math education are leaders, right?

be it in the classroom, department chairs, principals, coordinators, direct, goes all the way up. My question is they put the book down. What would be your, you know, advice is such a heavy word. I don’t want it to be advice, but your recommendation, your perspective for them now that they’ve gone through this book, what are you hoping? What sort of, you know, send off do you have for them now that they’ve had an opportunity to explore some of the great ideas that are shared in the

Kevin Dykema

Now it’s time to take action. We can’t just keep talking about what needs to change. We need to start making change. And we don’t need to do everything all at once. Don’t think you need to throw everything out and start from scratch. And you may make that decision, but start with doing something. Look at one of the big broad ideas. There were the three Rs. Focus on one of those Rs for a year and either focusing on the re-imagining, the revitalizing, or the making math relevant. The second year, pick up a second R.

the third year, pick up a third hour. I’d much rather have that than somebody who reads it and says, that’s too much work. I can’t do anything. Pick a spot, do it well, and it’s time. Our students deserve a different experience. Our students need to be leaving high school, recognizing that math is a beautiful subject and that math has real life implications for them and that they’re capable of doing mathematics.

Jon Orr

I like that advice. Like how many books do we read where we like, yeah, I read, I read 20 books this year, but then how many books did you actually put into action? Like how much, how much action did you take here? Because you can read it all day long and share that information. But if you’re if you’re not putting into action, then did you really like, then you really read it and did it really make like matter to you? And it was an impactful to you. I appreciate, appreciate that, that those words of wisdom, Kevin, let’s try to know if there was again,

one, say, big takeaway from the book that you, like what Kyle said, they put it down. We’re now, you know, we’re doing something. And what would you say is the big message, the big takeaway you’d want someone to have after reading the book?

Latrenda Knighten

Well, I mean, I couldn’t agree more with Kevin is definitely to take action. And so what I would suggest, you know, in addition to thinking about, okay, where am I going to start realistically if I’m gonna start with one R then move to the next, but also if I’m the leader and maybe I’m not a math teacher, I guess from experience, or maybe have been out of the math classroom for a long time,

I would say learn together with like your math faculty. So engage in this, like we’re going to take this together. So we’re all going to look at this. We’re going to talk about it. And then we’re going to go back and take a reflection of where we are currently. Because I think when people start talking, like it may look one way holistically, but when they start listening to each other, they’re going to find that some people are further along.

in this process than others. And I would definitely say take advantage of some of the things that are incorporated within the text itself. Like some of those reflective pieces, the pause and reflect. Like actually don’t just look at, those are good questions. Really take time, sometimes 10 minutes is the most it will need for a PLC meeting. You know what?

this is what we want to address and we’re going to look at this. So now that we’ve looked at this and then there’s some places where it you look at it based on if you’re the teacher, if you’re the district leader, the state leader or the coach, everyone looks at his or her piece. And then now we’re going to put something in action based on that because, you know, we want to, we don’t want anyone to be overwhelmed by the process. And I think it’s so

built on things that people are familiar with already, that it should, it won’t be overwhelming for anyone because there’s a lot of familiarity. You’re just adding a couple pieces to tie it all together. But I would definitely say get in the weeds, sit with your staff and everybody take a piece, commit to it, and then come back and reflect on those pieces because this can be done as a site-based reflective piece to transform.

you know what happens. You don’t have to wait for someone to make a law in your state or your province to change anything. You can do this within your classroom, within your school, within, you know, if you’re working with the district, working with folks, but you can begin to make those changes. Our kids deserve it. They deserve to have those experiences for sure.

Kyle Pearce

I love it. You know, and, and like you say, if you wait, you’re going to be waiting a long time, right? It’s like, make, make that change. And the common theme I hear, although you’ve articulated it differently, both of you is that we need to start and do something, start something, make it small enough, and then build from there. And that will compound, right? We all, my favorite lesson compound interest, you know, so it’s let this compound, let it snowball and

you know, there’s a lot of great messages there because again, as educators, not just in a math classroom context, content context, or how we deliver, there’s a lot of weight on our shoulders and we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. So let’s make sure that we’re not adding it all on. Let’s take something. Let’s bite, you know, take that small bite and work towards it. my friends, it has been an honor, a pleasure to have you both here with us on the show. where can the math moment maker community find out?

more about you both. know the NCTM website, but Kevin, where can friends connect with you? And then we’ll have Latrenda share as well.

Kevin Dykema

Yeah, so you can find me on Twitter, X, whichever you want to call it. You can find me on Instagram. You can go to the NCTM website and find the good old snail mail and happy to connect that way. And always looking for additional ways that we can help support math educators throughout the world and really improving mathematics education for every single student. So appreciative of our time together today.

Jon Orr

Awesome. Latrenda, where can we find out more about you and the work you’re doing?

Latrenda Knighten

Okay, well, thank you again for my first appearance here. I love it. You guys are great and wonderful. And so you can find me on, I still say Twitter, but it’s X. And so you can find me there. It’s easy because it’s my first name. And you can also find me on Instagram as well. I think my first name is incorporated in there as well. My mom gave me this name, so I decided I would just capitalize on it. I’ll use it with everything. And of course,

Jon Orr

Nice. Hey, yeah, right. Works, it works.

Latrenda Knighten

It’s easy to find us on the NCTM website. I answer email no matter what time they show up. I stay up very late. So I don’t know if it’s good thing or bad thing. I’ve noticed one member sending me emails at midnight or whatever. I’ve got to stop answering.

Kyle Pearce 

Well, thank you both. Thank you both for the great work that you’re doing. You’re bringing so much to the math community. It was many moons ago when I first attended NCTM and it had a major impact and it’s something that continues to influence the work we’re doing. And we always love sharing the work from NCTM and CSM and the great organizations that they both are. So thank you, my friends. Enjoy your time, Kevin.

Kevin Dykema

Thank you.

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