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In this episode, we dive into the key conditions that make large-scale, pull-out math professional development sessions worthwhile. We’ll discuss when it makes sense to invest time and resources in large math PD events and how to ensure they drive meaningful change. From skilled facilitation to aligning with district priorities, discover what it takes to maximize the impact of large-scale PD initiatives for math improvement.

Key Takeaways:

• Why the expertise and experience of the facilitator are critical to the success of large-scale math PD.

• How integrating math PD into a broader, coordinated system ensures alignment and sustained growth.

• The importance of tailoring math PD content to the specific needs and goals of the district.

• How getting the right people in the room ensures the message reaches those who can act on it.

• Practical tips for creating math PD sessions that go beyond inspiration and lead to action.

Resources:

• Register for the Make Math Moments Virtual Summit
• Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

Attention District Math Leaders:

Not sure what matters most when designing math improvement plans? Take this assessment and get a free customized report: https://makemathmoments.com/grow/ 

Ready to design your math improvement plan with guidance, support and using structure? Learn how to follow our 4 stage process. https://growyourmathprogram.com 

Looking to supplement your curriculum with problem based lessons and units? Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Yvette Lehman: All right. Today in today’s episode we are going to talk about large scale PD. So we’re talking about when we’re taking educators out of the classroom for a full day of, let’s say, professional learning. We’ve all been there right. You can picture the the ballroom or the, the large auditorium where teachers come together and they’re going to engage in a full day of learning.

And we’re going to talk a little bit about when this makes sense, like when does it make sense to include this professional development structure within your professional development plan, and maybe a cautionary tale about what it’s actually going to do more harm than it’s going to do good for your system.

Jon Orr: Yvette, you said like one of the first things that you said there was like when it makes sense and I think there’s leaders listening in and going like, you know, doesn’t like, what do you mean, like that? This is, you know, we plan for these days. We’ve got them on the calendar. We know we we’re working towards them.

We’re like, yeah, like pull out these full day half day sessions I use, you know, we use them all the time we want to make. That’s the only time I get in front of people. So now now you’re putting the thought in me like, wait a minute. Maybe that doesn’t make the most sense to do that, even though that’s the way we’ve been doing professional development forever.

Kyle Pearce: I think large scale PD is one of those things that we see most often happening. And I think, you know, it’s this breadth versus depth idea, right, is like we want to make sure that everyone gets the memo. You know, like we want to make sure I’ve trained them. I’ve I’ve checked this off the list. Now, we’re not suggesting that, you know, this can’t ever be effective because I think in certain cases it certainly can.

So, for example, bringing a large group together, if you’re releasing some new, resources, you know, in the schools, that can be a good place to introduce, educators along these ideas. Right? And being able to sort of expose them to what’s happening and where we are, but where things get a little bit foggy is like, if we want something more than awareness, then I think when we go with the large scale PD, we’re definitely opening the door to some some problems.

Right? So, you know, being aware that certain things are happening or that we have certain resources available, or maybe kicking off a school year, right, to get everyone motivated and excited about what it is that we’re going to do. Now, some of you might be listening and saying, like, when’s the last time I’ve been to a large scale PD where I was excited, right?

So, I mean, if we’re going to do large scale PD, we still need to make sure that the format is still engaging so that the audience wants to be a part of it. Right. But, Yvette, I’m curious, you know, going back to your thinking here, like, where do you see large scale PD maybe being a effective, you know, approach? And then we’ll talk about maybe some of the the common pitfalls along the way.

Yvette Lehman: So I’m actually somebody who loves large scale PD personally. So and I guess I’ll describe to you when it has worked for me in the past. So you know, I’ve attended professional development sessions, you know, in the ballroom style, where I was presented with an idea that really resonated with me. And it’s like that idea that was presented was a catalyst for significant changes I made in my practice.

But in those sessions, there was a strong facilitator who understood the classroom environment, understood the context where I was teaching. You know, I have had belief in that facilitator, like, I believe that that they were in a position to support me in this learning. And I think where the PD was most successful is that when I went back to the classroom, I had a community to engage in the learning with.

Beyond that one off PD session, I had a teaching partner. I had access to coach support within the district, and everybody was on this learning journey together. And the other thing that was really unique about that particular session is that our administrator attended with us. So then, you know, we had alignment. We all understood the changes. And I love, you know, we’ve been recently reading a book where they talk about, like, this vision of what we aspire to.

So because the right people were at the table, the a strong facilitator was leading the learning. And I went back to a school community where there were support structures in place. That one day of professional learning was a transformative experience for me.

Kyle Pearce: I’m picturing, you know, this type of experience. What I’m going to highlight is how important it is to make sure that what it is, what the big goals are for this session is very clear right from the start. And I’m, you know, going to guess as well that ahead of that session you sort of knew what it was.

The purpose of that session was because I think this is another one of those pitfalls where, you know, we sort of say we’re going to do large scale math PD, but then it’s sort of a black box, right? And it’s like people are showing up to the PD and maybe they don’t know exactly what it is that they should be anticipate or how they can prepare themselves, how they can bring appropriate resources or appropriate supplies that they’ll need for that day.

But it sounds to me like this particular style of PD had a lot of intentionality behind it, both behind what the purpose of the session was, but also who the session is for. Right. And I think, you know, I’m going to go on the other end of the spectrum and say like, how how might that have changed for you if those conditions weren’t sort of carefully crafted, if that intentionality wasn’t carefully crafted and thought through and we just invited anyone along the way, if we didn’t have maybe the right people at the table, as you had mentioned, the vibe could be incredibly different, right?

If it’s the wrong people at the table, because maybe it’s not people that are, you know, typically showing some of those leadership qualities, let’s say, or they’re, you know, they they kind of teach in maybe isolation and they aren’t necessarily those people that you want to be sort of rallying the troop back at the school that can really change the experience for everyone in the event.

Right. So I’m wondering, you know, what, were there any other details there that sort of made that PD worth the while for you? And then I want you to tell me like, how might how might that have changed if it was in a small scale. So do you see that PD experience having be being less effective in a small scale or you know, would it have maybe been more impactful should it have gone to a small scale?

Yvette Lehman: I mean, I guess that’s a good question, but I thinking about maybe what you started with, like with the awareness, like maybe the point of the session was to plant a seed for growth and then having those other structures in place allowed it to extend beyond that day of learning. So I think sometimes like the setting makes sense, but we just have to make sure we have those other structures and that support in the learning communities in the school.

Jon Orr: I wanted to kind of touch touch on a few things because Yvette, I that had a few things that she she highlighted in why that was impactful. And I want to kind of roll back a little bit like she she clearly said, like she was in this environment and it spoke to her like it gave her the it gave her the inspiration.

It gave her like the like it hit her at the right time. And I want to tie this to what Kyle was saying about, like, who’s the right person in the room and having to make sure that that alignment like, not even like the like, that’s not the alignment between like whether this actual content aligns with the district goals, the alignment of like, who’s in the room and what the message is.

And I think it worked probably for you that because you were like, I have clearly defined what my my, my like my pebble might be right now. And this hit my pebble and, and I think one of the things that we maybe need to make sure we do, if we’re going to have a successful pullout session or full, you know, full group session, is you and not only have the right people in the room, but you have to clearly define what their pebble is and, and or tell them what their pebble is so that the, the connection between what learning you’re providing here actually solves a problem that they have.

And I think that’s where we’ve missed the mark. On why teachers might leave professional development and not hit the mark, because we haven’t made it clear like, and I think we in education, we’re like, well, I told them I was like, what you did, you like did you clearly tell them like, we talk about that in our classrooms when we’re teaching students is like, did we tie it with the bow?

Did students walk out knowing exactly what the learning goal was that day, and how what you did during that class tied to the learning goal? Like we we sometimes make these assumptions that we’re helping these teachers with their like with pebbles in their shoe. And we haven’t made the connection to say that pebble is solved with this technique, or that pebble is solved with you shifting this strategy, or that, you know, this idea is going to help with these pebbles.

And I think we just kind of like glance over this. But I think that’s probably why it resonated so much with you. Is like, you had a pebble and it was and you probably just made the connection that that will solve my pebble. And when you have your bright spots in your schools or a person’s like you saw them take it and run with it, it’s because they they made that connection themselves.

They’re like, this solves my pebble. But I think we can do a better job about, you know, the impact that we have on these professional development sessions. If we clearly defined the pebble and we clearly define the solution to the Pebble, and we make that the point of the session. So I want to kind of call that out there, just, just as we get rolling, I’m thinking about the, the impact because you said alignment was key.

The right facilitator was key, the right audience is key. And I wanted and I was just hinting or connecting, like, what about the right audience? And that’s not even saying like going further and saying like, how do I make my PD more most impactful after the PD? We’ve talked about that on previous episodes too, but the way the audience in connecting with the audience is essential.

Yvette Lehman: You are absolutely right. So that is so true. For my experience. I did walk away from that session feeling as though the ideas that were shared were going to help me address the ways that I was struggling in the math classroom. So that brings us to the point of, you know, when does it not work and when does it actually do more harm than good?

So not only is it a big investment, you know, it’s it’s costly to run this type of professional development session. It has an impact on the system, because you have a lot of occasional teachers in classrooms that are in particular buildings on that day, but sometimes it does the opposite, where it’s like rather than motivating and inspiring, people walk away feeling more frustrated.

They’ve lost trust in the senior administration or the planning team, and it actually damages relationships and sets the work back rather than putting the right things in motion. So that sometimes happens exactly to your point, John. When the facilitator doesn’t understand the context of the teachers are experiencing. So that’s the risk. And of course, you know, we are certainly advocates for, you know, if your district doesn’t have the right facilitator, bringing in an outside facilitator makes a lot of sense.

Like the person facilitating this learning needs to have experience and knowledge in this area, but they also have to understand the context of your district and the experience of your educators, that they can present the learning in a way that addresses their pebble. And so that requires collaboration between the facilitator and the planning team to make sure that we’re really, again, like, aligned, that our goals are really clear and that the the learning that’s going to transpire does match the experience of the teachers in that district.

Kyle Pearce: It’s so key for that to take place. And basically what I’m hearing you say is like, you know, sometimes it could feel like if we bring in an outside facilitator, it’s like, problem solved. You know, like we we’ve hired someone who’s an expert in this one area or in this specific topic, and we’re good. Like, we’ll let them handle it and everything’s going to be great.

But what you’re saying, and I think is really important for us to, to recognize is that even the best facilitator, if they’re coming in to speak without context, can be incredibly ineffective. And I think also we have to think about if we are doing large scale PD, is that what is happening before and what is happening after? And I think those are two things that regardless of whether it’s going to be handled in-house or inside the district or whether we’re bringing someone from outside the district, if we’re doing large scale PD, we can’t look at it as the one hit wonder, right?

Because I think that’s what where we really get some of those negative outcomes, where it comes in. There’s been no sort of no, you know, preparation for, you know, the audience to really understand what’s going on or why they’re receiving that PD at that time. But then also if there is little or no follow up afterwards, then even if the PD was a success for the day, we’re probably not going to see any changes taking place afterwards, right?

So really thinking about why we’re doing the PD, we’re doing and how does it connect to what we’ve done in the past, and how is it going to connect to what we do next is really important. And I think it’s really easy for us to fall into a trap of like that. We did that, you know, sort of mindset.

We’ve all been there before like we did that. PD so it’s like checked off the list. Now we can move on to something else because there are there’s so many things on the list, right. Like we want to do it all. But I think this really helps us to go, okay, well wait a second. If we are doing large scale PD and we know that we need to spend more time and effort on this, then this large scale PD better be a really big focus for us for a I’m going to call it significant amount of time.

Otherwise we are probably doing at minimum. No you know, real benefit or potentially causing some harm as you add articulated as well there.

Jon Orr: You bet. It’s it’s why it’s essential that, you know, before the plan, you know, before the implementation of this PD is, is to clearly define like go back to the alignment piece and clearly define the goals of the session. You know, Yvette and I and you, Kyle, I’ve been talking with our leaders about the if then how structure of deciding on what’s important and how do I how do I, you know, make impact on on, you know the the program and I’m trying to roll out it’s like if we do this full day session or if we do this half day or we do this large group session, then I have to define what

impact on my hoping to see. And and you have to take some time and go, what does that look like? Like write it out. Like what? What are what does it look like teachers are going to be doing? If this session was a success, you have to define that. Then you have to say like, how will I know?

Like what’s the measurement? So if you can do those three pieces, if this, if I do blank then I will see blank impact. And how will I know if you can answer that then. And it feels like this is the right move then. Then you go do it right. Like then that makes it makes sense. But but with and I think a lot of times we don’t we don’t structure it this way.

We say let’s do this because it does fall in line with our goals. Sure. But then we don’t define what the success looks like. So then we’re still going, like I don’t know if it actually had impact, you know, I don’t know, like like I think you just want to add in the success doesn’t have to be like, oh, I saw seven out of ten teachers implement that strategy in their classroom over the next three months.

Like that. Could be your success, but your success might be that. Like you said at the beginning of this episode, Kyle was was like, maybe it’s about awareness and so maybe it’s about, you know, three months down the road, I’m going to ask these three questions. And if I see these seven words come out in these responses, when I interview teachers or it’s a survey, then I’m going to count that as a success, because my awareness that I’m trying to create has gotten the majority or the number of people that I was hoping defining to be the success.

Right? So it’s like it’s like you just have to say, like, what would I be really happy with if we got that? Because we did this right? And then when and then when you see it, you get to capture it. You get to say, yes, we see it. We got it. And then we’ve been, you know, we’ve been helping our leaders really set up structures to capture and record these successes.

So when you get to the end of the year, you get to answer the main question we’re all after, which is like, what did I do this year that had impact and how do I and like, did we have impact? I hope so, so so that you’re not left answering that question. You can clearly state this is the impact that we made this year.

Here’s a piece of evidence. Here’s a piece of that evidence. Here’s a piece of evidence. Right. And it’s and it’s not like at the end you’re trying to tally it all up afterwards. You built it along the way.

Kyle Pearce: Yeah I love that. And you know, I think oftentimes most oftentimes when we measure professional development we do the, you know, exit survey as sort of the main measure. Right. Like how did the date. And that’s a great measuring tool to get a sense as to how everything landed. But what you’re talking about, John, is sort of this idea that like, let’s think for a second, if we thought it was important enough to bring a large group of people from our school, from our district together to do this learning, if we thought that was important.

And in a lot of cases, it means a lot of money both to put on the event, but and then also to cover the supply teachers or the, the, the actual occasional teachers that are coming in to cover classrooms. We need to make it bigger than just about that day. Right. And I think this is the key. If it’s not worth thinking through, like, what is it that we want to come from this now?

I think we should think about this in two phases as well. Like there’s what do we think will come from this specific session, but then what’s the big outcome that we’re working towards? Because we know that a one day PD isn’t going to solve the problem, right? It’s not going to fix everything. But we need to know, like, what is it that we want to have down the road so that after that session, we can actually take the steps to plan what is next on the journey to obtaining that goal.

Right. And I think that’s a really important piece here. So getting rid of this checklist mentality is going to be really important. And thinking bigger about what is it that we’re trying to solve and then how is this particular event going to help us get closer. And here’s the crazy part. You might think it’s going to give you some outcome and you might not get that outcome, but then the question is, what are we going to do next to help so that we can get to that outcome?

How do we keep moving along? So, Yvette, I want to hand it back to you and I want you to help sort of highlight here. We talked a lot about different ideas, some of the things that could work, some of the things that maybe wouldn’t be super helpful. So what would you argue are the big questions that you want to be asking yourself here? If or as you are planning your next session, be it a large scale or a small scale PD session?

Yvette Lehman: Okay, so here are some guiding questions. So if this is for you, if you are in this position think about these following ideas. First of all you know, do you have a clear goal for the learning and does it align to your vision for math, magic, mathematics, education? And I think to John’s point, does it align or match your teacher’s experience or their perceived pebble like, is it going to resonate with your audience?

Do you have the right facilitator because the wrong facilitator, as we mentioned, can do more harm than good. So is there somebody within your district who has the skills and expertise to lead this learning? If not, can we look outside the organization? But then how are we going to partner with that person to ensure that they understand the vision and the context in your district?

I think we also talked about, you know, do you have the right audience who is joining this session, and why are they the type of people who are in the right positions? Do you have your leaders at the table? Do you have your, you know, informal leaders in buildings who are going to be the movers and shakers and be able to, you know, infuse some energy into this learning?

And I think most importantly, and we talk about this all the time. Do you have the structures in place to support implementation beyond this one day? Imagine. And we see this all the time. You have all of these different departments who will have individual funding and everybody is planning this one off day of professional development. But there’s just then, you know, the bank is depleted, the time is depleted, and there’s no opportunity to provide any other structures to ensure that the the learning that occur during that day is going to be transferred to the classroom.

It just isn’t money well spent. And it becomes overwhelming for teachers and it becomes a burden rather than a supportive system to actually create change in your system. So I would I really feel like going back into a leadership role in a district, I would really ask myself if there is not support beyond the day of is it even worth doing or is it just a checklist that we’re, you know, an item that we’re checking off a checklist?

And are we just adding to the burden of educators without putting the appropriate pressure and support to make this happen?

Jon Orr: I think what you’ve just articulated here in the questions to consider, and that last comment is, is basically saying, like, we don’t, you know, if we’re if we’re planning PD, it’s not just like, what can I what can I slot in here, when to fill a day or fill a half day? I’ve got time to fill. What do I do.

And there’s a lot more that needs to go into that thinking. If you’re going to create impact in, in, in, in the work that you’re trying to do throughout the year. So which is extremely, you know, important to have that thought in go when these times come up. Am I ready to to act on them so that I can use that time effectively?

And those were the guiding questions to kind of like go through to see if that is going to be impactful. And I completely agree. If if you can’t go through that list and, and also define that there’s going to be support afterwards, then it might not be worth doing. And it’s not a good use of the dollars that you have access to.

And I think that’s a good way to kind of wrap it up because of the, you know, the your call to action is to is to really just maybe go back and rewind this and write those questions down. And every time you have one of those sessions come up or one down as you’re planning for them, just answer those questions and come up with an if then how framework.

And and you’re going to be feel a lot better about the work that you’re doing, and you’re going to feel a lot clearer. And everyone who you’re impacting is also going to, feel a lot clearer on the work that they’re doing.

Kyle Pearce: You know, I think about the tree and our math program tree and, and today I feel like although we touch on all six parts, today we’re talking about the limbs, which is the professional development structure. And sometimes the limbs can be ignored. You know, of the tree, right? We focus on all the things we need to do. But really, if that structure isn’t there for your PD plan, that can actually hinder the effectiveness of the outcomes that you’re after.

So if you’re curious to see where things are going well and where you can improve in your district improvement program, you can head on over to make Math moments.com/report, and you can take our assessment, classroom teachers, there is a classroom version at the same link over at MC Math moments.com/report. So go ahead and take a look and see where your program is strong and where you can focus your attention next.

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