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Episode Summary:

Are you curious about how to overcome the most common challenges in implementing student-centered teaching practices in math and to unpack the 5 Practices For Orchestrating Productive Mathematical Discussions?

In this episode, Kyle Pearce, Yvette Lehman and Peg Smith, co-author of the new book Coaching The 5 Practices from Corwin dive into practical strategies for making math classrooms more effective and engaging. Whether you’re a teacher or a coach, this discussion on the 5 practices for orchestrating productive mathematical discussions and new coaching models will help you address real challenges and create a more student-centered learning environment.

Resources:

• Coaching The 5 Practices [BOOK]
• Episode #33 The 5 Practices: An Interview with Peg Smith
• Make Math Moments Virtual Summit [REGISTER HERE]
• Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

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Episode Summary:

Quick recap

Kyle, Peg Smith and Yvette discussed the implementation of the 5 practices in mathematics classrooms, with a focus on the importance of setting clear learning goals and the benefits of a student-centered approach. They also introduced a new coaching model to support teachers in addressing challenges relevant to their classrooms and a book that offers a framework for productive conversations between coaches and teachers. The team agreed to continue exploring these methods in future sessions and encouraged listeners to pre-order Peg Smith,’s book and attend their upcoming virtual summit.

Summary

Peg’s Reflections on Teaching Challenges and Epiphanies

Kyle welcomed Peg Smith, back to the Making Math Moments podcast and expressed interest in her new book and recent experiences. Peg shared that she has been mostly retired for the past few years, focusing on travel and writing. She also shared her recent work with teachers, where she realized that the 19 challenges identified in their book resonated with teachers even if they didn’t know about the 5 practices. Peg found this insight empowering and suggested that future professional development could be tailored based on the challenges teachers personally identified. Kyle then asked Peg about the biggest epiphany she had since writing the original book, to which Peg responded that it was an interesting question and she would need to think about it.

Setting Clear Learning Goals in Teaching

Peg Smith, emphasized the importance of setting clear learning goals in teaching, noting that it was a common challenge for teachers. He argued that understanding the desired learning outcome is crucial for teachers to guide students’ learning and to hold them accountable. Yvette concurred, highlighting the importance of teacher clarity and transparency for empowering students. Peg Smith, further explained that a learning goal should focus on what students should understand, not just what they should do, using the example of finding the point of intersection of two linear equations. Kyle expressed appreciation for Peg Smith,’s articulation of this approach.

Addressing Challenges in Implementing 5 Practices

Kyle and Peg Smith, discussed the challenges of implementing the 5 practices in mathematics classrooms. Peg Smith, identified planning as the primary obstacle, noting that it’s time-consuming to carefully plan lessons that incorporate the 5 practices. Peg Smith, suggested that teachers should aim to plan such lessons once a week or every two weeks with a partner to alleviate the burden and allow for reflection and improvement. Yvette agreed, highlighting the importance of engaging in this work with others.

Co-Planning and Co-Facilitating Lessons

Yvette shared her successful experience with co-planning and co-facilitating lessons with a teaching partner, highlighting the importance of shared experience and the role of coaches in implementing this structure. Peg Smith, then introduced a new coaching model focused on implementing the 5 practices in classrooms to ensure all students have access to high-quality mathematics. This model uses the 19 challenges identified by teachers as a core piece, allowing teachers to identify and prioritize issues relevant to their classrooms. Kyle expressed his support for this approach, emphasizing the importance of teacher autonomy and the value of focusing on issues perceived as important by the teachers.

Discussing Inquiry Routine Framework

Kyle and Peg Smith, discussed the benefits of a book that emerged from a research project involving coaches and teachers. Peg Smith, explained that the book offers a framework that aids coaches in having more productive and efficient conversations with teachers. The framework, called the inquiry routine, consists of four components, including inviting the teacher to identify challenges and questions, rehearsing potential classroom scenarios, and reflecting on the teacher’s thought processes. Kyle expressed his appreciation for the process and shared a personal anecdote about its effectiveness in a classroom setting.

New Approach for Teaching and Coaching

Kyle and Peg Smith, discussed a new approach to teaching and coaching. They focused on creating flexibility for teachers and students, and emphasized the importance of role-play and rehearsal to improve lesson delivery. Peg Smith, explained the inquiry routine, which includes inviting the teacher to respond, suggesting solutions, and generalizing the discussion. Kyle expressed his enthusiasm for this approach, highlighting its potential to foster independent learning and critical thinking. They agreed to continue exploring this method in future sessions.

Student-Centered Approach and 5 Practices

Peg Smith,, Kyle, and Yvette discussed the importance of a student-centered approach to teaching and coaching. They emphasized the value of allowing students and teachers to explore challenging concepts and ideas, encouraging productive struggle. The team introduced the 5 practices, which include inviting, rehearsing, suggesting, generalizing, and reflecting, as a tool to facilitate this approach. Yvette expressed her anticipation of the book’s release in November and her plan to share it with colleagues. The team also encouraged listeners to explore their work for more information on coaching the 5 practices.

Book Launch and Summit Proposal

Peg Smith, announced that his book, which is currently being printed, will be published by the end of the month and is available for pre-order on Amazon with a 25% discount code. Kyle proposed inviting Peg Smith, to present at their upcoming virtual summit in November, an offer Peg Smith, accepted, pending a review of his schedule. The conversation ended with Kyle and Peg Smith, agreeing to share the discount code and the date of the summit with their respective communities.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00:08 – 00:00:26:13
Jon Orr
Are you curious about how to overcome the most common challenges in implementing student centered teaching practices in math? And unpack the five practices for orchestrating productive mathematical discussions. While we’ve got a treat for you, Peggy Smith, coauthor of The Five Practices for Orchestrating Productive Mathematical Discussions, is here. And Kyle. You bet. And Peggy are going to dive through this new book, Coaching the Five Practices.

00:00:26:15 – 00:00:47:20
Jon Orr
So stick around and you’re going to get some insights into how to coach 4 to 5 practices for orchestrating productive mathematical discussions.

00:00:47:22 – 00:00:52:02
Kyle Pearce
Welcome to the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. I’m Kyle Pearce.

00:00:52:02 – 00:00:55:01
Jon Orr
And I’m Jon Orr, we are from makemathmoments.com.

00:00:55:03 – 00:01:05:02
Kyle Pearce
This is the only podcast that coaches you through a six step plan to grow your mathematics program, whether it’s at the classroom level or at the district level.

00:01:05:03 – 00:01:15:13
Jon Orr
And we do that by helping you cultivate in foster your mathematics program like strong, healthy and balanced SRI. So if you master the six parts of an effective mathematics program, the impact that you are going to have.

00:01:15:13 – 00:01:16:17
Kyle Pearce
On your teachers.

00:01:16:19 – 00:01:20:06
Jon Orr
Your students will grow and reach far and wide.

00:01:20:08 – 00:01:53:21
Kyle Pearce
Every week you’ll get the insight you need to stop feeling overwhelmed, gain back your confidence and get back to enjoying the planning and facilitating of your mathematics program for the students or the educators that you serve. Hey. Hey there, Peg. Great to have you back here on the Making Math Moments That Matter podcast. We are so excited to bring you back not only just because we like chatting with you, but because you also have some new ideas and resources to share with them making math moments that matter community.

00:01:53:21 – 00:02:01:12
Kyle Pearce
So before we dig into that peg, it’s been a while since you’ve been on the show. How are you? Where are you coming to us from and how’s things going?

00:02:01:14 – 00:02:22:07
Peg Smith
I am coming to you from Pittsburgh, which is where I live and I have been mostly retired for the last few years, although I did find time to write a new book. But other than that, I’ve been doing a lot of traveling, trying to visit some of the national parks in the United States and just lots of fun museums and those kinds of things.

00:02:22:09 – 00:02:33:20
Kyle Pearce
Awesome stuff. Awesome stuff. And what would you say when you say mostly retired? I’m super curious. What does that mean to pack?

00:02:33:22 – 00:03:00:12
Peg Smith
Well, let’s just say over the last few years I’ve done some work with some school districts, but that’s basically been winding down. So right now actually finishing this book was sort of my last real math adventure. And I have been less I’ve been more reluctant to like, go to conference and things like that because it feels like it’s time for the next generation to step up to the plate.

00:03:00:12 – 00:03:09:24
Peg Smith
And it seems like they have been so uncomfortable leaving all those things in the hands of the people who are going to follow in our footsteps.

00:03:10:01 – 00:03:35:05
Yvette Lehman
Well, that we are thrilled for you that you’re recognizing that and taking this time for yourself to enjoy retirement. But certainly your voice would be one that is missed by the community at conferences. And I know that your work continues to inspire a lot of educators. So I know you’ve been on the show before, and we’re wondering, although you shared a math moment in the past, what may be is a magic moment that’s been resonating with you lately.

00:03:35:07 – 00:04:05:22
Peg Smith
Well, it’ll make more sense once I talk a little bit about the book. But one of the things that came out of the last set of books we wrote were the 19 challenges that we’ve identified that teachers have experienced when trying to enact the five practices. So what we did in that series was try to provide examples of what the practices look like using video and then talk about the challenges teachers face and how you might actually overcome them.

00:04:05:24 – 00:04:31:20
Peg Smith
So one of the things that occurred to me was I wondered how familiar these challenges that we identify would be to people at large, whether they knew the five practices or not. So I recently, recently being about a year ago, did some work with some teachers that I’d been working with for a couple of years, and I decided to give them a list that had the 19 challenges on them just to see what they would come up with.

00:04:31:20 – 00:04:57:11
Peg Smith
They knew just a tiny bit about the five practices and what I started realizing, and it had been confirmed by some other things that have happened after that, that even if teachers didn’t know about the five practices they recognized and really resonated with the challenges, whether they knew the five practices or not. While I group the challenges into the five practices, they didn’t even need those as a guide.

00:04:57:13 – 00:05:26:00
Peg Smith
The idea of trying to understand student thinking or finding a high level task, those were just things that resonated with them. So I realized then that if I took these things that they identified as challenges, which were all things that I wanted them to be working on, I could actually plan the professional development for them around the things that they had personally identified as being the things that they were grappling with.

00:05:26:02 – 00:05:43:09
Peg Smith
And out of a group of I think there were 20 teachers, almost two thirds of them identify as some of the exact same things. That was really empowering to me because I thought, well, if I’d been doing this for years, I would have been taking professional development a little bit more target tactically.

00:05:43:11 – 00:06:10:23
Kyle Pearce
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I can imagine because I mean, even in some of the questions that we had in our minds for you today, we talk about how the five practices gives us a great structure to follow, right? It gives you a framework, something to be thinking about. And it almost naturally is addressing some of those challenges. And I’m sure that the nuances are parts that are still struggles and challenges people sort of endure.

00:06:11:00 – 00:06:31:14
Kyle Pearce
So would you say, because a question I was wondering about is like back when you wrote the initial book and that book has really changed. You know, the way I teach mathematics, the way that’s taught mathematics that I have done P.D. for many, many years together, and I know it’s impacted John and all the work we do at making math moments here.

00:06:31:14 – 00:06:51:23
Kyle Pearce
And I guess my wonder is, what would you say is these challenges that are the biggest epiphany that you’ve had since or is there maybe one of them that you feel like sticks its head out more than the others? What would you say is something you know now that maybe you wish you knew back when you wrote that original book?

00:06:52:00 – 00:07:22:12
Peg Smith
It’s a really interesting questions like, Well, if I knew then what I knew now, that first book probably would have been different. But how would it have been different? I think one of the things that we always knew was important was the setting of clear goals. But I think that over the last few years, even in doing the Five Practices and practice books, it became very clear how hard it was to really come up with a learning goal, even for teachers who some of the teachers that we featured in those books.

00:07:22:18 – 00:07:49:08
Peg Smith
That was not an easy thing to do. And what I’ve noticed since then is that the teachers that I’ve worked with, both teachers that I worked with when I was teaching at the university and as well as the practicing teachers, very few people identify setting a learning goal as a challenge. In fact, almost nobody does. But almost to a person, it’s the most challenging thing they face.

00:07:49:10 – 00:08:09:10
Peg Smith
So one of the things that I’ve been trying to think about in writing this book was thinking about, okay, they’re not going to identify goal, but how can we get them to focus on that anyway? Because if you don’t know, if you don’t know where you’re going, you’re going to end up someplace else. That was Yogi Berra by the way.

00:08:09:12 – 00:08:39:11
Peg Smith
I said that once at a session a couple of years ago, and I said, That was Yogi Berra. And I said, Does anybody think this bunch of young people I said, Does anyone know who Yogi Berra is? A guy raised his hand. He goes, I know who Yogi Berra is. Yeah, but that’s something very different. But anyway, this whole idea that you’ve got to be clear on what the outcome is so that you always can hold those goals in mind as you’re asking questions and as you’re calling up students to present their work and those kinds of things.

00:08:39:11 – 00:08:46:00
Peg Smith
So I think how fundamental that is to the whole process has really become crystal clear.

00:08:46:02 – 00:09:06:05
Yvette Lehman
I feel like you are speaking directly to my soul right now, Peg, because if you were to ask me which step is the most important step of the practices at Step zero, I’ve always said that teacher clarity to me is what empowers you as a strong facilitator to move students towards the target as well as transparency with students.

00:09:06:06 – 00:09:26:17
Yvette Lehman
Like I firmly believe that students should also be empowered to know where we’re going so that they can self-assess along the journey. So Kylin are wondering what do teachers need to feel confident in identifying a learning goal? And I think there’s so much conversation in maybe even inconsistent and see around what a learning goal is.

00:09:26:19 – 00:09:49:06
Peg Smith
Well, so for me, a learning goal is what you want students to understand as a result of engaging in a lesson, not what you want them to do. I mean, you’ve got to be clear on what you want them to do. But oh, Jim Hiebert and his colleagues used to talk about what’s the residue that gets left behind as a result of having done something.

00:09:49:11 – 00:10:16:10
Peg Smith
That’s the mathematical understanding that you take with you as you go to the next thing you’re going to do. And a lot of it, I think, has comes from I mean, you have to understand mathematics and I think that even people who know mathematics, it’s like I keep trying to get them to dig deeper. So for example, even secondary teachers that I worked with, I’ll say, So what do you want them to learn as a result of this lesson?

00:10:16:16 – 00:10:37:21
Peg Smith
I want them to be able to find the intersection of two linear equations. I want them to find that point. I said, okay, so what then? What do you want them to understand about the point of intersection and then keep pressing? And actually there’s an example in the new book about this exact conversation just kept pressing the teacher.

00:10:37:21 – 00:11:06:04
Peg Smith
It’s like, Well, I want them to understand that that point would satisfy both equations. Okay, what do you mean satisfy? Those X and Y values will make that the equation true. Okay, what else would you want them to know? What happens around that point? Well, I’d want them to know that. I mean, if most circumstances, if they’re not parallel or they’re not on the same line, they’re going to intersect somewhere and one’s going to be higher before the point of intersection and the other one’s going to be lower afterwards.

00:11:06:04 – 00:11:23:22
Peg Smith
So they basically change position if they don’t have the same slope. So really trying to tease out. But what I found is if you keep asking those questions, they start asking themselves those questions when they go to write a goal. So it’s like, okay, that’s what I want them to do. What is it I want them to understand about slope?

00:11:23:22 – 00:11:42:11
Peg Smith
What is it? I want them stand about fractions, multiplication. So trying to pull that apart because I think if you have an idea of what the underlying understanding is, then you ask different questions and you aren’t satisfied just with a correct answer.

00:11:42:13 – 00:12:18:12
Kyle Pearce
I love it. I love it. This is so important. I love the way you’re articulating here because I think that’s where as educators we get so stuck in that like what the kids are going to do without really thinking about what that will result in. I always like to say, like, what? What will they know? Underst and and be able to do not not just what they’re going to do in the learning process, but like, what could they do with this information after and when you ask these questions, it really allows you to start thinking about what’s the point, simply why am I doing this?

00:12:18:12 – 00:12:47:09
Kyle Pearce
Like, why is that an important thing for students to know and understand? So your example, I think, really helps to highlight that. And I feel like we I have some ideas here as to why this, you know, the answer to this next question, but I’m really curious of your perspective on it, which is along the way, the five practices, as we’ve mentioned, is a great structure, but I don’t think we’re consistently doing it in mathematics classrooms, right?

00:12:47:09 – 00:13:11:04
Kyle Pearce
We’re not consistently doing it. So what would you say is maybe one of the biggest challenges as to why it’s not being adopted by all? I think all people who know mathematics and they know effective instruction, they know the work, they see value in the work, and they obviously are promoting this approach. What do you think is that hold up?

00:13:11:04 – 00:13:28:18
Kyle Pearce
Do you think it is this idea that teachers are getting bogged down by the learning goal or are they getting bogged down by something else? Like where do you think that bottleneck is happening when it comes to trying to do this more consistently with the different lessons that we’re teaching in a math curriculum?

00:13:28:20 – 00:13:59:06
Peg Smith
I think the biggest challenge is planning and the amount of time it actually takes to plan a lesson. We’re going to do the five practices because you mean you have to figure out the goal and task. Okay, that’s one thing. But then you have to I mean, I think the hard work is trying to anticipate what students are going to do and figuring out the questions that you’re going to ask for, particular solutions that are going to highlight students thinking and move them towards the goal of the lesson.

00:13:59:08 – 00:14:22:14
Peg Smith
So when I’ve worked with teachers in professional development, we often do what we call a learning lab. So one teacher will be teaching and a group of us will go and watch and that teacher and I will work with that teacher in trying to plan the lesson. And most teachers will say that when you plan the lesson that carefully, it goes much better than when you don’t.

00:14:22:16 – 00:14:44:23
Peg Smith
But trying to find the time to do that level of planning on a consistent basis, it turns out to be more than and I can understand that actually. I mean, if you’re teaching multiple preps a day and you’re trying to plan at that level of detail. So my advice has always been that, okay, so let’s just take it off the table.

00:14:44:23 – 00:15:15:16
Peg Smith
Don’t try to do it every day, but try to do it once a week or once every two weeks and plan with somebody else. So you don’t have the burden of the planning on your shoulders and that one week you take the lead, then your partner takes the lead and if you do that consistently, periodically, consistently over the course of a year, you’ll have a bank of lessons and of course, saving everything that you collected and created so that you can go back and reflect on what happened.

00:15:15:16 – 00:15:29:12
Peg Smith
And then when you pick up that lesson the next year, say, okay, what, what? Well, what and what are we going to change? So I think that a lot of times I’ve noticed that teachers, you know, like I tried it for a week and I just can’t do it. And it’s like, okay, well.

00:15:29:14 – 00:15:33:12
Kyle Pearce
Yeah, they’re burnt out. They just went way too aggressively on it, right?

00:15:33:14 – 00:15:35:06
Peg Smith
I think that that’s part of it.

00:15:35:08 – 00:15:55:23
Yvette Lehman
I think you touched on so many relevant and key barriers that some people might face. And one thing that you shared was how important it is to engage in this work with somebody else. And that’s really how I found it successful. I was so fortunate to have a teaching partner and we were able to, like you mentioned at first we would call plan everything maybe twice a week, right?

00:15:55:23 – 00:16:18:20
Yvette Lehman
It wasn’t every single day that we were delivering this detailed lesson, but twice a week maybe. But I had that other person to anticipate with to talk through our moves. And even we would split our blocks so that we could actually do our monitoring and talk through our selecting and sequencing before we came back for the consolidation. So we were really clear on the intention of the consolidation.

00:16:18:22 – 00:16:41:03
Yvette Lehman
So that leads to the conversation about the powerful role of coaches in doing that, co planning, co facilitating and the learning that will come from that shared experience. So I know that this new book you’re currently working on or soon to be released, does target that coach role and how coaches can be really significant in the implementation of this structure?

00:16:41:05 – 00:17:05:13
Peg Smith
Yeah. So one of the things that we noticed, I mean, so you had the first book and that led us to the next three and then it’s like, okay, a lot of teachers now are working with the coach, so maybe we need to think about what a coaching model would look like. That really targeted the five practices. So the first thing that makes a coaching model different is that, I mean, there is a clear focus.

00:17:05:13 – 00:17:55:06
Peg Smith
The goal of this coaching is to help you effectively implement the five practices in your classroom so that all students have access to high quality mathematics and the opportunity to develop identities as mathematicians. And that’s what everybody’s aiming at. So unlike coaching, that’s more nebulous, you might say this really has a specific outcome that we’re looking for. And the other thing about it is going back to the challenges that I mentioned, those 19 challenges were using those 19 challenges as really a core piece of the coaching model, because we feel that those challenges really represent the things the teachers have to deal with in the classroom, whether they have prior experience with the five practices

00:17:55:06 – 00:18:30:13
Peg Smith
or not. And that all of those 19 things are really important things to attend to if your goal is ambitious instruction. So what we’re suggesting in this model is the first thing you do after you’ve talked with the teachers and got them on board is you give them the 19 challenges and you ask them to identify a couple, 3 to 5 that they’ve experienced and just write a little bit about how that has played out in your classroom.

00:18:30:15 – 00:18:54:12
Peg Smith
And then those challenges become the focal point of conversation. And so between the coach and the teacher. So now it’s not a matter of saying to the teacher, what do you want to work on? Or the coach saying, I think you need to do this. It’s a matter of, okay, what do these 19 things really speak to you?

00:18:54:14 – 00:19:09:09
Peg Smith
And sort of the things we’re going to work on. So now the teacher has an investment in what’s going to be worked on because they’ve had a voice in that. But the list has been constrained to things that we think are going to matter.

00:19:09:11 – 00:19:34:20
Kyle Pearce
I love it. You’ve got to assume that out of those 19 that everyone’s going to have at least a couple of those that come to mind, right? So it gives them a nice variety of possibilities. And it also is something that’s going to be productive. I think any coach or mentor that’s listening has had that experience where a teacher identifies, we call it a pebble in their shoe.

00:19:34:20 – 00:19:58:15
Kyle Pearce
That is something that isn’t really going to move the needle, but then you can’t not work on it because the teacher perceives it to be important. Right? And here you’ve given them enough variety. You’ve given them enough. We’ll call it option in order to keep it where the autonomy is there, where they can really feel like they’re working towards something that matters to them.

00:19:58:17 – 00:20:24:22
Kyle Pearce
And, you know, based on research, based on what you know about this, this work that it will move the needle if we’re able to try to hone in on those things. So when we turn to the book, now that we’re talking about the book called Coaching the Five Practices is what would anyone who’s listening, who the vast majority of our listeners are in some sort of formal or informal leadership role, right?

00:20:24:23 – 00:20:46:18
Kyle Pearce
Usually those listening to math podcasts are in those types of roles. What would you say would be the biggest benefit for a person in that role? To be able to grab that book, dig in and go, Wow, I’m able to now do X, Y, or Z a little bit better or a little bit more productively, a little more efficiently.

00:20:46:18 – 00:20:51:05
Kyle Pearce
Now that I’ve been exposed to this particular framework in the book.

00:20:51:07 – 00:21:12:19
Peg Smith
The first thing I want to tell you, just to make sure you and the audience all understand this so that the book comes out of a research project where we worked with six coach, eight coaches, and they each worked with two teachers in the school districts that they worked in. And this was a very diverse sample from different geographical regions and urban suburban rural districts as well.

00:21:12:21 – 00:21:38:05
Peg Smith
So we’ve had a lot of things play out that we have data for that we know that this is what happened when they did that. But one of the things the coaches we’ve worked with have said is having the challenges has been so enormously helpful to them because it does bring a focus to the conversation. And they never had a teacher who didn’t couldn’t identify at least three things, and some of them identified a whole lot more than that.

00:21:38:07 – 00:22:09:20
Peg Smith
So they felt like now they weren’t imposing on the teacher. What I thought you needed to work on, but rather could use what the teacher had generated. The other thing in the book that I think I would invite people to consider was we also identify something that we call the inquiry routine, and this is meant to actually help the coach frame conversation and with the teacher during a pre lesson or post lesson conference.

00:22:09:22 – 00:22:53:13
Peg Smith
And there are really four components to the inquiry routine. And the first move is to invite. So the idea is that the teacher has given you some materials prior to teaching the lesson and you as the coach, are trying to put together key ideas you want to bring up in the conference so the teacher or the coach may look at the materials and say, okay, so they identified, let’s just use, for example, they identified the challenge of trying to listen to and make sense of student thinking, which is related to monitoring and they noticed that when the teacher prepared their monitoring tool, they had anticipated all kinds of solutions.

00:22:53:19 – 00:23:15:19
Peg Smith
But they really had not come up with questions that were going to get students to articulate their thinking so that the first thing that we would say the coach might want to do in that setting is to say, okay, I want you to explain what kind of questions you would ask the student who produced this solution. Using a solution that they actually did produce.

00:23:15:21 – 00:23:40:13
Peg Smith
And just to see what the teacher’s thinking about that. Now, the teacher may then come back with some really good questions that they would ask, in which case you’re essentially done. But what it’s not assuming is just because they didn’t put anything down, they don’t have any ideas on the subject. And the teacher really struggles to actually come up with some questions they would ask.

00:23:40:18 – 00:24:03:21
Peg Smith
Then you might move to our second move in the inquiry routine, which is rehearse. So the idea with rehearse is to consider how a teaching action would play out in the classroom and consider possible responses. So, for example, so maybe in the first conversation about an invite, the teacher said, Well, I would ask them how they got the answer.

00:24:03:23 – 00:24:21:12
Peg Smith
Okay. So then the coach might say, Well, why don’t we do a little role play? I’m going to be the student and you’re going to be the teacher, and you just asked me how I did it. So I’m going to explain to you mechanically, step by step, how I did it. What are you going to ask me now?

00:24:21:14 – 00:24:41:05
Peg Smith
So that now you’ve grounded it in an actual prior solution so that it now becomes more concrete? What would you want to do about the solution? And then I would come back with another student response and we’d try to go back and forth to play that out a little bit to see if the teacher can keep digging a little bit deeper.

00:24:41:07 – 00:25:02:06
Kyle Pearce
I love that. And that’s such a like this process. I’m envisioning it in my mind and I’m picturing actually, I don’t know if we were in a grade seven classroom one time and we were talking about division, and I remember that there was a few moments in time. This was at a school in the Tecumseh area will say, and we ran out.

00:25:02:09 – 00:25:21:16
Kyle Pearce
It was like we hit that wall ourselves where we were working with students. And you eventually get to that place. Like when you ask the next question and the student responds, and then you ask another question, the student responds, and then you get to a place where you go, I’m not sure what else to ask here, but you might not have all the information that you really wanted, right?

00:25:21:20 – 00:25:49:02
Kyle Pearce
You’re still not exactly sure what the student has done or why they did it that way. And you can only imagine that by doing this work, be it through role play or being in the classroom with students, where it’s going to just create more flexibility for you in the moment to be able to do this more often, even in the days that we aren’t doing, say, a formal five practices planned lesson as you’ve articulated.

00:25:49:02 – 00:26:13:01
Kyle Pearce
So what are you noticing? Or actually maybe do you want to take us through the last two of the inquiry routine? That would be amazing. I just wanted to let you know, like I’m envisioning what you’re saying here, and I think it’s so important and helpful that we do this practice so that we can better prepare ourselves for not just that lesson, but other lessons that might come up in the future as well.

00:26:13:03 – 00:26:36:02
Peg Smith
So the next move in the routine is suggest, and if you think about this, is somewhat sequential in the way I’ve been describing it, you invite the teacher in, they have a hard time responding. So you try to take them through a rehearsal and then if that still doesn’t B seem to be getting you anywhere, then you might actually make some suggestions.

00:26:36:02 – 00:26:55:05
Peg Smith
So for example, you might say, well, suppose the student did this. Could you ask what does this represent? What does that represent? What does this mean? Does the answer make sense? And you would tie it to a particular solution so that you could say, So what does that mean when you get a remainder in the division? I mean, what does that tell you?

00:26:55:07 – 00:27:33:06
Peg Smith
So really just trying to I mean, in depending upon what the actual challenge is, there may be even more specific suggestions. So if your challenge had to do with keeping track of what groups are doing and they haven’t been able to come up with a method of doing this, you might say, well, suppose you had on your monitoring chart and you sort of jotted down names or that you put table numbers, each groups table so that you could say group one was doing this or grouped who was doing this, or if you asked a question, you could leave the question on a Post-it note at the table.

00:27:33:10 – 00:27:56:16
Peg Smith
So when you came back, you’d remember what you asked and then rather than just throwing out the suggestions for each suggestion, say, how do you think that would help? So that it’s not simply telling? Like, I’m telling you what to do, but I’m inviting you really to consider some options that you might want to implement and what benefit they might have for you.

00:27:56:18 – 00:28:16:20
Kyle Pearce
I love it. So you’re inviting them. You’re working together here, you’re rehearsing to play it out. If you sort of it sounds like essentially this process is almost like an if then sort of scenario, right? It’s like when you hit the, Oh, what do we do now? You move to the next part of the phase and we go to rehearse.

00:28:16:20 – 00:28:55:17
Kyle Pearce
We’re going to maybe role play a little bit here and try to play out that scenario. Maybe they’re still struggling. You given the part I like about this, is you’ve essentially used mentorship like moves to this point where you’re asking the questions of the educator, much like we want to be asking the students in a math classroom right before we get to suggesting trying a strategy and you’re doing this for the educator, then and only then does it make sense to sort of maybe come up with a suggestion, not saying that it’s the way or the only way you could go, but hey, what about this that might maybe trigger the educator to come up

00:28:55:17 – 00:29:09:12
Kyle Pearce
with another perspective, Right. Or maybe they go, Oh, now that you’ve said that, Peg, maybe What about this? And you, kid. Oh, that’s great. Awesome. Here we go. And then after that, did you include the fourth or is that is there.

00:29:09:14 – 00:29:09:24
Peg Smith
There’s.

00:29:10:01 – 00:29:38:00
Kyle Pearce
More separate one more. I’m super curious here and I’m loving the flow here. It seems to me very helpful given the fact that we do a lot of this type of coaching. Just for me to stay on track as we do this work, because I think humans naturally, especially educators, we naturally want to jump to the answer, right, to like give answers instead of allowing people to arrive at an answer so that they can do the learning themselves.

00:29:38:02 – 00:29:40:06
Kyle Pearce
So I’m loving it. I’m excited here for the fourth.

00:29:40:06 – 00:30:11:17
Peg Smith
So the fourth one is actually generalize and so what we want the coach to ultimately be able to do is if you worked through all this with the teacher and they’ve come up with some ideas that they want to try out, then you want to sort of pop out. So it’s something that transcends this particular lesson. So it’s the idea that so what will you do when planning future lessons in order to be prepared to really dig in to student thinking?

00:30:11:22 – 00:30:32:07
Peg Smith
And why will that be helpful to you? So don’t want them to think this is just a one and done. We’ve done it for this lesson, but sort of lift up the idea here so that the next time you’re planning a lesson, you’re thinking about, Oh wait, what questions can I ask to make sure I’m getting students thinking on the table.

00:30:32:09 – 00:30:57:19
Yvette Lehman
What you just said, Peggy reminded me of our conversation earlier about what we want students to walk away with, right? It’s not just what they can do in this isolated task, but what understanding can they carry forward to future tasks. And I totally see correlation. I know that Kyle’s thinking the same thing that I am, that this is the structure that I need as a coach to ensure that my interactions with teachers are meaningful.

00:30:57:21 – 00:31:36:12
Yvette Lehman
Because you alluded to this at the beginning of the call, sometimes to go in and think we’re going to tackle math is so broad and it’s so general and we’re not really clear on what it is we’re even hoping to achieve through that coaching session. But in the same way that Five Practices allowed me as a teacher to be intentional, organized, precise, I see the same application to this particular model with those coaching conversations, and I think it’s almost like you could have every single interaction with every teacher you encounter, follow these phases and it would result in something different and meaningful every time.

00:31:36:14 – 00:32:01:22
Peg Smith
In fact, the coaches that we have worked with have said that once you have these three things, you find that even when you’re having a casual conversation, you’re taking a step back and you’re first inviting before you make any assumptions about anything. And that that has really changed the way they think about it. The other thing I want to add is we also encourage coaches to use these flex ably.

00:32:02:02 – 00:32:25:09
Peg Smith
You have to start with an invite, but sometimes rehearsed just doesn’t make sense. Depending upon how they responded, you might go right to a suggestion or you might find within a conversation. There’s this invite rehearse. Maybe you invite. Again. There are some examples within the book that sort of take you through conversations with some of these coaches and teachers we worked with.

00:32:25:11 – 00:32:59:13
Peg Smith
And you see that it’s not always boom, boom, boom, but hopefully the teacher, if they couldn’t come up with something, they’ve got something, some sort of a suggestion that they can go away and work with and generalizing again, a lot of times coaches tell us they run out of time, but what we’re hoping over time, you think about if you’re working on the same practice, the same challenge, the next time that you make sure that you’ve really tried to pull out what that takeaway is that you’re going to take with you to the next lesson.

00:32:59:15 – 00:33:28:22
Kyle Pearce
I love it. That’s a really important point, and it kind of echoes everything that I think in a math classroom. That is true as well, where we can’t be robotic in the implementation of a structure, right? It’s like it’s there to guide, it’s there to bring you back on track. We’ve all been in that moment where you’re speaking in front of a room, whether it’s children, teenagers or adults, and then you sort of go, Where am I again?

00:33:29:00 – 00:33:50:13
Kyle Pearce
I thought I was all prepared, but now here I am. And how do I get back on? Okay, I’m back to the structure, but that doesn’t make sense based on what I know. Let’s move on to the next bit of that formative assessment happening during that conversation That is so key and critical. Peg, there’s been so much knowledge that you shared in this short conversation.

00:33:50:15 – 00:34:14:09
Kyle Pearce
I’m knowing based on being able to read the draft of the book and I know there’s so many more goodies inside there for educators. I’m wondering here for those who are listening, if they could only take away one big idea from this concept and maybe this book in general, what would you say is the big takeaway that you’d like them to walk away with?

00:34:14:11 – 00:34:41:15
Peg Smith
I think that maybe the most important thing is to think about. I mean, Yvonne, you’ve made a lot of connections between what teachers do with students and what the coaches are doing with teachers. And I think that if you think about what we’re trying to do in structurally with children is we’re trying to give them something challenging to work on and then letting them work on it and work through it and find ways to support them.

00:34:41:20 – 00:35:15:11
Peg Smith
And that’s really exactly what this model is doing for teachers and the like. Inquiring, inviting, what is it? How are you thinking about this? So really trying to get make sure the teacher’s ideas are what’s driving the conversation in much the same way that you want students ideas to be driving the conversation about the task at hand. And because in this case of teaching and coaching, the teacher has identified what’s challenging for them.

00:35:15:13 – 00:35:34:21
Peg Smith
So now let them try to struggle through that challenge so that they have the opportunity to experience productive struggle in the same way we want students to. And so I’d like to think that the tools and the models that we’ve provided in the book are all meant to help you do that.

00:35:34:23 – 00:35:55:09
Yvette Lehman
I can already confidently say that being introduced to the five practices made me a far more intentional educator. I felt more comfortable in the space. I felt more prepared it, and I can certainly see myself adopting this structure in a coaching role and having that same benefit. So I’m thrilled to read the book when it comes out in November.

00:35:55:09 – 00:36:19:04
Yvette Lehman
I’m already going to be sharing it with colleagues, letting them know it’s on the way. But before we leave you today, is there anywhere that so you know, of course, we’re really familiar with your work. Your work has inspired us. But we may have some listeners who are just learning about five practices through this episode. Is there a way that they can find you, find your work, and really, where will they be able to get their hands on coaching the five practices and when do you anticipate the release?

00:36:19:06 – 00:36:46:03
Peg Smith
Oh, okay. Well, this book is going to it’s in the hands of the printer as we speak, and it’s going to be published by the end of this month. I looked on Amazon today. You can preorder and they say it’s shipping on September 10th, which seems very quick to me. But also if folks want to order the book through Corwin, I can give them a code and they can get a 25% discount.

00:36:46:04 – 00:37:14:13
Kyle Pearce
Awesome. Well, if you’d like to share the code with us, feel free to say it and or send it to us and we can put it in the show notes and we’ll do both. So that, yeah, we love our friends at Corwin. They’ve done a lot of sponsorships for our virtual summit, and although we can always cut this out, if you say no, we were intending to invite you to present at the summit this November and potentially share some of the work that you’ve done in this book.

00:37:14:13 – 00:37:28:14
Kyle Pearce
If that’s of interest, I know you’ll need to check your calendars and all of those things, but we know that in the past your sessions have been a huge hit for them, making math moments that matter community. And we’d love to have you back if that’s of interest to you.

00:37:28:16 – 00:37:48:14
Peg Smith
Send me the date. And if it works, I will definitely do it. Right now, November’s open, but I am planning a trip, so give me that date and I’ll try to plan around it rather than I will send you the code. But it’s very easy. I mean, you just go to Corwin dot com and it’s Raven are a VPN 25.

00:37:48:16 – 00:38:08:18
Kyle Pearce
Excellent. That is fantastic Peg. It is always a pleasure, John was very disappointed that he was unable to join us here today. But as a positive, we got to hang out with Yvette and I think she was very excited that she was able to join us here because I know she loves your work just as much as we do.

00:38:08:20 – 00:38:20:19
Kyle Pearce
So thanks again, Peg. We hope that you have an awesome, awesome rest of the day and we’re hopeful that the date in November will work for you. So please stay in touch and keep on doing the great work.

00:38:21:00 – 00:38:25:19
Peg Smith
And thank you. This is really fun and send my regards to John.

00:38:25:21 – 00:38:27:24
Kyle Pearce
I definitely will. Take care.

00:38:28:00 – 00:38:29:24
Peg Smith
Okay, Bye.

00:38:30:01 – 00:38:53:18
Jon Orr
Okay. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Peggy Smith. New book, Coaching for the Five Practices. I know that if you are a coach, if you’re a leader, if you’re a leader at the School of Constructionist Intervention, as you’re working with other teachers, these principles, these ideas that Peggy is sharing in her new book are going to be super insightful for you, super engaging for you to apply in your regular teaching duties.

00:38:53:18 – 00:39:22:00
Jon Orr
I know that is impactful for me, and I always learn a lot when listening to any sort of interview with Peg or talking with her directly. When we think about our five or the six components of our effective classroom tree, the trunk, the roots, the soil, the water, sunlight, limbs, the branches. Most of the time when we think about the five practices, we’re thinking about the teacher moves, the five different moves we make when we’re structuring our lessons to maximize student engagement, maximize student thinking in our classes.

00:39:22:00 – 00:39:45:06
Jon Orr
And so that naturally is the branch of the tree. These are the pedagogical moves, the this pedagogical content knowledge that we have as educators. And the stronger we strengthen the branches up of that tree, it supports the leaves. You can’t have leaves like the leaves are the resources, the lessons, the tasks that we use in our classrooms. Those are what most times students see, other educators see.

00:39:45:06 – 00:40:05:19
Jon Orr
We see when we start to research, you know, what do we want our classrooms to look like? But you can’t have strong or healthy leaves without that strong those strong branches that we have to have those moves. And the only way we get stronger at those moves is through coaching or practice and trial and error of trying the different moves in our classrooms.

00:40:05:21 – 00:40:27:03
Jon Orr
And I know that I got super strong in those moves when I said I’m going to make sure that I try to change my lessons or at least one lesson per day to get more discussions in my classroom. Follow the five practices on A on a regular basis. It opens your eyes to so many things. And then that leads to also you strengthening your roots of your tree.

00:40:27:03 – 00:40:49:09
Jon Orr
Like your math content knowledge will get better when you’re strengthening the branches and vice versa. Super important to understand that dynamic between branches, roots and the leaves. They’re all connected. And I know that we have to continually strengthen those as educators in the classroom. So hope you enjoyed this particular episode and make sure you kind of go and check that book out.

00:40:49:09 – 00:41:08:01
Jon Orr
The link will be in the show notes. Show notes can be found over at Make Math More MTV.com for this episode 304. Make sure you subscribe and get that rating review button. We want to hear from you of how episodes maybe this episode impacted your teaching or will impact your teaching. What are your thoughts there? Let us know.

00:41:08:03 – 00:41:11:05
Jon Orr
You find us on all social media platforms as well.

00:41:11:07 – 00:41:16:09
Kyle Pearce
All right there, Math Moment makers. Until next time, I’m Kyle Pierce.

00:41:16:09 – 00:41:17:10
Jon Orr
And I’m John or.

00:41:17:11 – 00:41:19:23
Kyle Pearce
High fives for us.

00:41:20:00 – 00:41:33:11
Jon Orr
And a high bar for you. Oh baby.

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