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Episode Summary:

In this episode, Jon and Kyle dive deep into a conversation with James O’Neal, founder of Mastery for All, exploring the impact of prioritizing conceptual understanding in math education. 

James O’Neal, Jr. is a National Board-Certified middle school math teacher with 15 years of experience, currently teaching at Piedmont IB Middle School in Charlotte, NC. He holds an M.Ed. in Curriculum and Instruction from UNC-Charlotte and was a 2022 finalist for the Presidential Award for Excellence in Mathematics and Science Teaching (PAEMST). Founder of Mastery For All, LLC, James advocates for high expectations and equitable outcomes in education through public speaking nationwide.

James is here to share some insight on his upcoming session in the 2024 Make Math Moments Virtual Summit. 

They share personal stories and insights on how a focus on student outcomes can transform teaching practices and improve learning experiences.

Resources:

• Make Math Moments Virtual Summit [REGISTER HERE]
• Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

Attention District Math Leaders:

How are you ensuring that you support those educators who need a nudge to spark a focus on growing their pedagogical-content knowledge? 

What about opportunities for those who are eager and willing to elevate their practice, but do not have the support? 

Book a call with our District Improvement Program Team to learn how we can not only help you craft, refine and implement your district math learning goals, but also provide all of the professional learning supports your educators need to grow at the speed of their learning. 

Book a short conversation with our team now.

Episode Summary:

Mastery for All Founder’s Math Journey

Kyle introduced James O’Neill, the founder of Mastery for All, a business supporting math education for underrepresented students. James shared his own math moment, recalling how his 8th-grade teacher, Mrs. Simmons, recognized his potential and gave him a placement test to join the algebra class, a decision that significantly impacted his academic trajectory. The discussion then transitioned to James’ upcoming session at the annual virtual summit.

Improving Math Education Through Understanding

Kyle and James discussed their experiences with mathematics and how it is taught. James shared his approach to teaching math, emphasizing the importance of making sense of concepts and building students’ knowledge, rather than just memorizing rules. He expressed his belief that everyone can and should like math, and he aims to change attitudes towards it. Kyle agreed with James and highlighted the issue of students being distracted by not understanding concepts, which can lead to missed information and difficulty in retaining what is taught. Both agreed on the need to help more educators adopt this approach to better meet the needs of all learners.

Understanding and Teaching Mathematical Concepts

James, Jon, and Kyle shared their experiences with understanding and teaching mathematical concepts. They discussed a particular instance where James was taught the formula for the hypotenuse but didn’t fully understand the concept behind it. This lack of understanding changed after a teacher provided a simple proof of the concept. Kyle expressed that he had been teaching for years before having this realization. They also discussed the role of teachers as translators in helping students understand mathematical concepts. They agreed that a strong understanding of the material is necessary to effectively teach and translate it to students.

Mrs. Simmons’ Impact on Conceptual Understanding in Math

Jon asked James about his experience with Mrs. Simmons, a teacher who seemed to foster a conceptual understanding of math in her students. James shared his struggle with geometry and how Mrs. Simmons’ belief in him and her teaching method helped him to see the connections and make sense of the subject matter, thereby transforming his approach to teaching. Kyle then reflected on his and John’s teaching journey, noting their focus on engagement through trickery rather than conceptual understanding, and asked James if he always saw the importance of conceptual understanding as a means of engagement. James confirmed this, emphasizing the significance of mathematical understanding in engagement.

Emphasizing Conceptual Understanding in Teaching

Kyle, James, and Jon had an engaging discussion about their personal journeys in understanding mathematical concepts and the importance of focusing on conceptual understanding in teaching. They shared their experiences of overcoming initial hurdles and the excitement of uncovering new insights in their subject. The group expressed optimism for the future, believing that their teacher-led focus on conceptual understanding will positively influence the next generation of teachers. They agreed to continue on this path, with an emphasis on creating classrooms where students see mathematics as a practical tool rather than a rote set of procedures.

Changing Teachers’ Mindset in Mathematics

Jon, James, and Kyle discussed the challenges of changing teachers’ mindset and teaching approaches in mathematics. They identified two main obstacles: the teachers’ own experiences and beliefs, which are often a product of their own education, and the lack of control over their teaching methods. They emphasized the importance of educators being aware of these issues and actively working to overcome them. The trio also recognized that this is a gradual process that requires patience and persistence, given the deeply ingrained beliefs and habits.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Kyle Pearce: Hey. Hey there, James. Welcome to the Making Mouse Moments That Matter podcast. Thanks so much for joining us here today. Take a second, my friend. Introduce yourself to the making mouth moments that matter community. This is your first time on the podcast and it’s going to be your first time joining us at our annual virtual summit. James, welcome. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

James: I appreciate that, Kyle. Hey, John. Glad to be here. I’m James O’Neill. I’m the founder of Mastery for All. Mastery for All is the business that I started to support, the mastery of mathematics by providing professional development, coaching and consulting to school leaders and math teachers as it relates to everyone being a mastery student in my business, I really highlight the brilliance of black boys because as I go around and consult and support, I see that black boys are not scoring as well as many other other demographics. And so I just want to bring to light what we are capable of and reminding teachers that we can do math as well.

Jon Orr: Love it, love it. And in such an important topic that you kind of dig in on and we’re going to get into your session in particular in this episode for the summit. That’s coming up. But before we do, we ask James. I don’t I don’t know if you know, but we ask every guest what their math moment was.

And it is, you know, like, I think I think when you think about math class and usually when we say the words math class, there are images that pop into your minds. And especially like for me, I still I still hear the words math class and this image of fifth grade, you know, multiplying, getting a sticker, you know, like these things stuck with me all these years.

So when we say math class, like, what is popping into your mind right now? Like what’s flashing there that goes? That’s that’s what I remember.

James: Yeah. I don’t think I can say math class and not think about Mrs. Simmons. Talk about just.

Jon Orr: Rolls off the tongue like you’ve got it you.

James: Got there is no connect disconnection from math and Mrs. Simmons Mrs. Simmons saved my life. I grew up in a little small town area and a lot. There was not a lot expected for me as a little black boy in the South and a little country town. And Mrs. Simmons, I had been doing well for the majority of my little from kindergarten all the way to eighth grade.

And I remember not being a part of the gifted kids. They were pulled out of class all the time. Right. Mrs. Smith is in eighth grade. Gave me a placement test to get into Algebra one. And it was the first time where I felt like somebody had seen me and I was then on track with those kids who had had pre algebra in seventh grade and building skills up.

And it was, it was productive struggle that year because I went from seventh grade math into Algebra one without the other stuff in. Right, right. Mrs. Simmons changed my life that year and I try to be Mrs. Simmons on another level. So I can’t think about math moments without her saying, Hey, I think you can do this. Totally changed going for me.

Kyle Pearce: Oh, that is such an awesome story. You know, the sad reality, though, is that that story had to have happened, meaning, you know, that someone didn’t see you earlier. Right? So thank goodness that someone did finally go, wait a second, you know, but you know, it would have been of course, will we’d be living in a much better world if that sort of thing, you know, didn’t happen, if that that memory was something different.

So we appreciate you sharing that with us. Yeah. Let’s dig in here and let’s chat a bit about your your actual session here. And I’ve got a you know, I’m looking at the title and I’m hearing your math moment, which I did not know before this episode. And your episodes are all about making math make sense for kids.

And I have to sort of make this assumption and assuming is bad, they always tell you. But my assumption is that, you know, your own experience probably impacted or influenced, you know, who you are now as an educator and what you’re trying to do. And it sounds like maybe not just for the kids that are like James, who maybe had that, you know, that skill set ready to go.

And no one maybe saw it in you, but it’s almost like you’re going, Wait a second, what about the kids that maybe aren’t ready yet? But it sounds like in your mind you’re saying that math can truly make sense, like we believe here, math makes sense for everyone when we’re given the proper time and support. So talk to us a little bit about your session.

Making math make sense for kids and what you know folks who attend this session are going to be learning about when they join you on the math summit.

James: Yeah, I appreciate that, Kyle. Yeah. And so I was a student that built my math identity off of Quick. I got it procedures and all the things I said to right there in my mind that I’m built for. If you give me a structure, if you give me a system, my I will flow. And it doesn’t matter if it’s math, that’s just my life.

Well, that’s not how necessarily conceptually that that was kept from us growing up in the classroom. It was the if you can do what the teacher did, then you were a great student and I am a great mimic. Or I could do that. Many of my peers could not. And I’m now no more so after becoming a math teacher that a lot of people hate math because it doesn’t make sense.

It is not because of it. It’s this it’s this language that many times it doesn’t translate well with people. And so no one likes being in a space where someone is talking about something that you can’t get or somebody asking you to do something that you cannot make connections to. And so if you’re constantly in that space, if you’re constantly showing up in that classroom and you can’t make sense of stars and you released to do something on your own, and you’re always like, I don’t get it.

I don’t get it, I don’t get it. Who wants to be a part of that? So I’m really about showing teachers how to make sense of the conceptual and how to feel students funds of knowledge like they come in and we are built to make sense of our world. How can we do that with mathematics? And I showed teachers just things that we skip over.

I do this exponent thing where we ask students to memorize rules, but we never make sense of the rules and the power of the sense making that that comes into play and why our brains wants to retain that as opposed to reject it when it makes sense. And so it’s really about the, the changing people’s attitudes about math because I believe I tell people, I want to give you a chance to like it right?

If it makes sense, at least you have a chance to like it as opposed to it never makes sense. I don’t have a chance to like it. So that’s really what I’m really trying to get educators.

Kyle Pearce: Well, it’s so funny and we talked about this on on our show so many times before because John and I are art. We were mimic or is like we were that kid right and and to the point where a lot of kids that end up getting this name you know, of being good at math, the traditional sense of mimicking.

Right. Is, is what sort of people are saying in many cases, it was almost like I didn’t want to know because like it was like harder for me to understand it. I was like, I got the pattern, like, just like, let’s move on with it, right? Like that was like my mentality. And I think for a lot of students, I actually didn’t like the math.

I just liked that I could do it fast and be done, you know, and, and, you know, something that I think is really coming out in what you’re talking about here with actually making sense, with actually understanding what’s going on. Not only I love the lied about giving them the chance to like it, but I think of how distracting that is for that person who is like, I can’t think beyond this next place because I still don’t know what this means.

And it’s like I’m fixated on it. But then, you know, we as those procedural teachers back in the day, just keep going, keep going, keep going. And they’re way up here and they’re going like, but what about that? You know, they missed everything else. So they have no chance to try to pick up on that behavior or that pattern.

And yet, you know, here we are just trying to sort of memorize and regurgitate. So I’m wondering, like, at what point in your journey did you sort of like maybe clue into it? Was it already like did you know this about yourself? I know for me, it took a while before I started to recognize who I was as a math student.

I just thought I was good at it. And then I realized as I worked with other kids that, oh, my gosh, there’s like there’s like some kids that are like me and then all these other kids tend to like not like it and it they want the sense making. And I didn’t have that to give them. So tell us a little bit more about that.

And, and like, how are we going to maybe help more educators take that step so that we can meet the needs of all learners, not just the learners that are like us?

James: Yeah, that’s that’s really good. So I did not have this moment come to Jesus moment until I was actually in college. And my professor at the time, Dr. Lee Steff, who was an amazing mathematician, he was, what, one of the first black male presidents of in STEM. And so he was my professor. I didn’t know how much of a big shot he was, but Ralph Wilkes, in everything he literally asked us and we were in this all of us was in this math teacher cohort where we were planning to be teachers and asked this one day, why does A squared plus B squared equals C squared?

And we all looked at him and we’re just like, we don’t know why that’s the rule. It’s because it’s because we know how to work it, like we know when to use it. We know when you give us that ramp and we need to try to find that side, we know how to we know all the procedures. Sure, but no one could tell him why.

And Dr. Lee still had the ability to make you feel this small when you didn’t know what you were talking about. And so he literally that day showed us a proof, right? When I tell you, my mind just opened up as to why A squared plus B squared equals square. And with the simple proof about the squares on each side.

Jon Orr: He did the visual proof.

James: Yes. The how the areas each square adds up to give you the hypotenuse, the square of the hypotenuse. And it just I was like, why does someone keep this from me? And that day I realized that we were gate kept from the conceptual understanding of why. And it changed my life. And I went on a journey to discover why.

Why does this work? Why does this work? Why did this work? But that was the day where my life just totally took another shift.

Jon Orr: That’s that’s another pivotal moment in your memory. You know, your math moment, memory bank, you know, and I think.

Kyle Pearce: I was teaching for seven years before I saw.

Jon Orr: Well, I was going to say that. I was going to say I was like as like I, I didn’t have that moment as early as you. It’s like, you’re right. It was like seven, eight years into teaching where I’m like, I know I used to like I remember that some of our resources had, you know, they have that inquiry section of the book, but you’re like, I have a math degree.

I’m going to flip right through that and I’m going to go right to the examples, right? So then I don’t even need to look at the examples. I’m just going to go right to the exercises and I’m going to I’m going to do them in front of the kids and they’re going to going to get the mimicking, because that’s the way I thought mathematics was supposed to be taught.

I was like in the handbook, right? Like, you’re all have to we all have to have this handbook. And it and actually we we just spoke with Sunil Singh, who and you because you said, you know, mathematics is a language. And Sunil Singh was talking about how mathematics was the language and we were talking about translators like in the in the world of language, you know, there are translators from one language into another language.

And it was like it was like we teachers are the, you know, the translators in a way. And you also said the gatekeepers. And this like translators sometimes are those gatekeepers of like what you can. And can’t learn or what you can and can’t be exposed to. And us as translators, it’s it’s we’re, you know, our classrooms, our students who are going to get their language translated for them.

It’s all based off like how well we understand our own level of the language so that we can translate it and give those students the experience of that world. But it has to be like how strong we are. And I think sometimes we we take that for granted about real fluency around the math topics because, you know, both Kyle and I have degrees in mathematics and we taught procedurally the whole you know, that was first ten years without understanding.

There are different ways to see it are all different proofs around the Pythagorean theorem you know and it was is kind of like this this understanding that we have to change things and because, you know, we we are stuck in this. We’re stuck in this. Like what? What’s that phrase like? Like curse of knowledge. Like you’re stuck in it.

Like this is the way it’s supposed to be and you can’t see out of it. Right. And and I’m curious, because I want to go back to Mrs. Simmons like was Mrs. Simmons a teacher like that or was Mrs. Simmons like the the typical teacher? And it was like she saw you for who you were and gave you that that chance.

You want to give other students, you know, other, other other people that you’re working with, like was Ms.. Simmons a teacher like that? And you kind of you kind of picked up a little bit on that as well, or was Ms.. Simmons very traditional in that way?

James: She was a mixture. So I remember this was like the first time in class where we were left to try to figure it out. It wasn’t like this thing where you watch me do a problem, now you solve a problem. We Mrs. Then as we def we actually engage in math competitions and I believe because she had that lens like I can’t be in the competition with you, right?

Like you’re going to have to try to make your own connections. I think because she had that lens, she knew like in the classroom, I can’t feed you everything. Like, I’m going to get you to a certain place and then I’m going to lead you to make sense of it. It was the first time where since making start it before I got into geometry.

And this is the issue that I had with geometry. I hated geometry. And geometry was the first time where someone said, I believe in you enough to make all the connections. And I’m just like, What? Like on my own? Why you want me to prove this theorem? You want me to make this proof, you want me to go and given this, prove this what?

I’m so used to having teachers tell me each step. And the reason why I hated geometry, because it was the first time where like, you had to make sense of stuff. And I didn’t have that mental practice. I didn’t like it until I started to teach it. And I’m just like, this makes sense. Like, I can see the connections now and I don’t have to hate this anymore.

And so she was literally the teacher that really opened up like I believe in you. I’m going to give you this piece, start bringing this together.

Kyle Pearce: You know, you’re you’re giving us some interesting thoughts here in our own journey. And, you know, I’m reflecting on the fact that it sounds like you had sort of this conceptual weight awakening earlier than, say, John and I did in our in our teaching careers. As as John and I both, we had very similar paths where we taught very procedurally for a long time.

And like we didn’t actually know, like we thought being procedural meant we understood, like we actually had conceptual understanding. It’s like that ignorance, right, that you have you don’t know what you don’t know. And for many years we were trying to engage kids to like math, but for the wrong reason. Meaning like we were like trying all these other tricks to try to get kids to want to come to math class.

We wanted to make the activity more interesting, but it was still procedural at its core. And I’m hearing that you had this like conceptual journey along the way. So my wonder for you is like, did you always sort of like see the actual conceptual understanding as the engagement key? Like the key to engagement because I totally am in line with that now.

Like now I’m like, the math can carry so much of the weight for engagement because it’s like the epiphany. You know, the moment when you see like the light bulb moment for kids going off when you’re doing procedural math, there’s no light bulbs going off. You know, there’s like, hey, I’m done my work and I know how to repeat this over and over again when they have that like, oh, so you mean when this happens, that happens, you go try it and try, you know, like, was that always the case for you, like when you entered the classroom, like, hey, if I understand this well enough and if I can help the kids to understand

it, like that’s the engagement factor. Like, did you get to avoid all of will, call it the mistakes that we made early in the journey? I think a lot of teachers make these mistakes. Like, what did that look like and sound like for you?

James: Yeah. So I, I call it the blip. Like I don’t know if y’all a marvel fans or whatever like that, but literally when Thanos snapped his fingers and like, half the world disappeared, it was. I got out of college, shared his story all the time, but all of a sudden everybody was like, We’re now talking about math, and we’re now discovering and we’re now in groups and there’s think pair share and there’s emails like I’m like, What happened to the world?

Because I didn’t learn math like that. I was in row. And you did what the teacher did. It was almost like I was forced to try to see it another way because all of a sudden I got out of college and now the world was changing. There was this discovery of mathematics that was never there before. And so I think I was forced to actually become this person.

And I had already started a journey already in college that I was just like, okay, I need to make more sense of stuff. And so when I got into the classroom and one of you all talked about our own personal journey of understanding the fluency and why this stuff makes sense. When I started seeing the why, I was just like, Ain’t no way in the world nobody can get this.

Like, this is just it just revolutionized like this makes so much sense that I know my kids can do this because they’re engineers.

Kyle Pearce: And as a teacher and as a teacher, I got I’m sorry. I’m like, I’m excited because like, I’m with you on this going I’m sure.

Jon Orr: So excited it cut you off, right?

Kyle Pearce: Yeah, I know. I know. It’s so, so impolite. I know. I’m sorry, but it’s.

James: Okay or something. Then you.

Kyle Pearce: Think. Think of this. And this is the part like when you trying when you’re trying to help other educators sort of make this shift as well and help them to have the epiphany is like it makes you realize you’re like, there’s still so many things I don’t understand about math, you know, and that it like makes you a little excited that it’s like, well, that one lesson that I’ve always struggled to, like, try to teach or what, like whatever it is, whatever the concept is, there’s something there that I’m not seeing.

And it makes it interesting every time you come back to it to teach it again, to go, I’m telling you, I’m going to figure it out, you know, like I’m going to figure out the thing that’s going to make this make sense for all of the kids here. And it’s not me making it make sense for them. It’s to help them bump into it, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So I love it. I think we’re going to be great friends. Moving on. And I think I heard you say when you had this calling, you know, you’re talking about like the the Marvel, you know, situation there. It’s like it sounds like you’re a little bit of a math superhero in a way, right? Like you’re like you’re getting called to this new world, right? This journey.

Jon Orr: So it gives me it gives me a lot of optimism. You know, like I think when we talk about focusing on content, conceptual understanding, and when we think about this for a sec, like we we got to this point on, it’s not necessarily on our own because we had Mrs. Simmons we had I forget the name of the professor that you said, but, you know, we had our own teachers that helped us kind of clue into these things as well.

Our colleagues, you know, and sometimes the students help you clue into these things that we’re like. That’s an epiphany moment as a teacher and all three of us are focusing on that. The, you know, the content, that procedural fluency, like the actual procedural part comes later. And we’re focusing on the conceptual understanding as an important factor now, and we’re trying to pass that to the students that we’re serving now in it.

And I have so much optimism because if we’re creating classrooms of students who are seeing mathematics done that way and are performing mathematics done that way, and if we didn’t even come from that experience and that’s happening, then think about the next generation of teachers who are coming out of these experiences and they’re bringing that with them. And they either maybe don’t have that like background that we just said that we all came from these mimicking experience.

You’re like, but eventually, someday down the line that will be like those people. Like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean? That’s the way you did mathematics. Like, what do you mean that’s where you learned it? Like, that’s because I think we’re we’re focusing on that. It’s going it’s going to be a day where more students have the experiences that we’re trying to give than the opposite. And those because the teachers will just keep cycling, it’ll be a snowball effect.

James: Most definitely. Most definitely. I definitely foresee that I’m in hopes and that’s why I do what I do. That’s right. One of the educators I get in front of. That’s why I hold a workshops that I hold because it is a it is a mindset shift. It is. It is. You’re asking someone to and I’m realizing and I think without law, you’re really asking someone to to literally change the way they see mathematics.

Right. And you’re asking a teacher to change their philosophy on mathematics and their mindset, yet meaning that their mind have been set on what they believe they should look like. And that’s that’s not easy. It’s not easy. But if you’re not if you’re not exposed to it, if you don’t if you don’t show people why this is better, then the way that doesn’t have it have not really been working or for a set few or kids. You won’t get the benefits for all your kids being able to see it and personalize it for themselves.

Jon Orr: Right now. Now here’s here’s something. Because this is this is I mean, I’m curious about your opinion on here. Like you work with teachers on a regular basis. Like what do you see as the major stumbling block to that shift in terms of classroom experience for, you know, teachers, you know, trying different techniques, trying to, you know, make sense of the mathematics themselves so that they can make sense for their their students.

Like there are teachers out there that it’s either that’s like that’s the block or there’s another block that’s preventing a majority of teachers from changing this way. And that’s that’s the stumbling block that if we can get over that, then this is where this optimistic world is going to come from. Like, is it mindset that is really preventing us from, you know, generally making these changes?

Or do you believe there’s like is there something else? Is there is there another blockage that is preventing, say, the average teacher from, you know, teaching the way you’re teaching?

James: Yeah, I had a colleague we just talked about this recently. Recently AJ McPhillips. She told me that and she quoted someone else that I can’t think of who she quoted, but she said, many, many of us educators, the greatest indicator of how we’re going to teach is the way it was taught to us. Right. And that alone is one of the main reasons why we have what we have right now.

And we still have the generation of us that are now going through that transformation, but it was not given to us that way. So the likelihood of us actually even knowing that this is a better way is is not really high. And so that’s first and foremost. And then control is another thing that I was just at an event just this past weekend and I asked teachers about, you know, giving voice, allowing students that have voice.

And one teacher just got up and said, you know, I have control issues and I’m just like 95% of us, if not how you do. And when you take the model from the I do, you do we do model, which means that I have to start right. And that’s how it’s always model and that’s how it always begins.

It begins with me. And then I am now taking that power and I’m giving it to you. Not an easy thing to do. And so those two issues many times impacts what we allow, how much talking we allow, how much we believe our students will be capable of making those connections. We want to make those connections on their own. Is this something that constantly see.

Kyle Pearce: Totally and, you know, even as sort of a byproduct of that as well or maybe it might actually be something that causes it to be a harder habit to break is if I don’t actually have a deep enough understanding in the math content myself. It’s like, what am I setting the kids up to do? You know, like I could give you the opportunity to say, Hey, you know, John James, go ahead.

I want you to think about this problem. And you’re like, what about it? You know, like if there’s no actual inquiry, if there’s no actual, like intentionality behind what we’re trying to like vol we got to volley something to the kids, you know, and sometimes that could be really tough. So great points here. This is one of the biggest challenges.

Like I, I like to sort of remind myself and I hope everyone listening, we have to remind ourselves that this isn’t something that can change overnight. So you had mentioned this idea that we’ve all learn math in a certain way, and it means that we have certain beliefs about mathematics, we have certain ideas, we have certain habits that are now said.

It’s going to take a long time. That next generation is sort of like what we’re doing all of this hard work for. So really, while we want to see it happen sooner, we have to also give ourselves grace that like our role in this, I think, is to start that shift and start that change and not necessarily, you know, beat ourselves up if if we don’t see it happening as soon as maybe we’d like.

And I’m saying it out loud only to remind myself because, you know, this happens in it and it takes quite some time. So, James, I want to thank you for being here on the podcast, giving everybody an idea of who you are and what you’re going to be bringing to the summit. So my question then is to leave the audience with between now and when they attend your session, what would you say is the biggest takeaway you hope someone has taken here and it’s that thing that’s going to go, You know what, I’ve got to go and sign up for James a session at that free summit coming up in the near future.

James: Yeah, I think the biggest takeaway that I want anyone that shows up to the session to have is if I can make sense of it, then I can help my students make sense of it. Right? It is. So that goes back to the story that you all have talked about. Like there is a journey of mathematics, loving and learning and understanding the why of it that is beautiful like.

And I realized that when I understood why and I don’t believe I’m a nerd enough like you like like all of us can do this. Like when I understood why, I knew how powerful it was for me to give that to my kids and to allow them to discover it and empower themselves with the sense making ability that’s found in mathematics.

And I believe ultimately that any participant is going to be there. They’re going to see that if students can make sense of it, then there they’ll love it even more, right? Yeah, that’s that’s my goal.

Jon Orr: I love that. I love it. And and it it’s it’s such an important idea. So, folks, if if you are, you know, listening to this episode right now, which you are because you just heard me say that you need to head on over to make my promise dot com for a summit register for the summit right now you’re going to pick James this session it’s making math make sense or kids and you’re going to show up he’s is he said hey if you can make sense of it then you could help your students.

I think that’s such an important idea. That’s what you’re going to get. Plus more in that session. And the actual weekend is November 15th, 16th and 17th, 2024. You can register for free for the entire weekend making up on intercom for this summit. James, we want to thank you so much. Where else could folks go to learn a little bit more about what your what you’re doing in math land?

James: Yeah. My website Mr. James the dot com is a great place to start and they can find me on any of the social media platforms at Mr. James O’Neill or at Mr. Dot, James O’Neal. So yeah.

Jon Orr: Awesome. Thanks so much, James.

Kyle Pearce: Thanks for being here. And we look forward to checking out your session at the upcoming summit.

James: Good to be here. Appreciate you guys.

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