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School districts often invest significant time and money into purchasing new math curriculum resources, but all too often, those materials end up collecting dust—or worse, being implemented in ways that dilute their impact. In this episode, we unpack what comes after the purchase. How do you move from adoption to actual transformation in the math classroom? 

We explore what the research says about effective math curriculum implementation, the common pitfalls that undermine high-quality math tasks, and actionable steps districts can take to ensure materials are used as intended—supporting deeper learning and equitable access for all students in mathematics.

Key Takeaways:

• Buying the resource isn’t the finish line—it’s the starting point of a longer implementation journey.
• Effective professional learning and ongoing support are essential for helping teachers use materials as intended for math impact.
• Improper use or over-scaffolding can unintentionally lower the rigor of high-quality tasks.
• Clear vision, modeling, and consistent messaging from leaders create the conditions for successful implementation.
• We share insights from implementation science and education research to guide your next steps.
• Regular feedback loops and math classroom observations help ensure that implementation is both effective and responsive.

Resources:

• Register for the Make Math Moments Virtual Summit
• Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

Attention District Math Leaders:

Not sure what matters most when designing math improvement plans? Take this assessment and get a free customized report: https://makemathmoments.com/grow/ 

Ready to design your math improvement plan with guidance, support and using structure? Learn how to follow our 4 stage process. https://growyourmathprogram.com 

Looking to supplement your curriculum with problem based lessons and units? Make Math Moments Problem Based Lessons & Units

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Yvette Lehman: In today’s episode, we are going to unpack a situation that probably many of our listeners are familiar with where you’ve now purchased a resource for your district. And the question is kind of now what? So we’ve possibly spent a significant amount of time and resource actually selecting the high quality instructional material. We’ve dished out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to purchase the material. And now the work is in, in, you know, in fairness, just starting because now the work is supporting the implementation of that high quality instructional material in our classrooms routinely.

Jon Orr: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think that’s, you this is the thing that I think we either overlook or we just take for granted is that we’re going invest in all of the work to pick the right one. And if we do pick the right one or pick a right resource, maybe it’s a tool even, is what are we planning for next steps? Like, what does the next layer look like? Because if I think that I’m just going to slide this in,

and give everybody a copy or give everyone access or give everyone this tool in their in their room to use that it’s actually going to fix some problem that we have, then then we need to actually like, take some steps backwards. Because first you have to define like, what is the problem I’m actually trying to fix? And is this does this thing actually help me do that? And if we assume so, what am I doing to actually ensure that this

will fix the problem and what are the timelines around my expectations around that? There’s a lot to unpack here, guys. I’m excited to dig in. Yvette, what are we seeing as some possible hiccups around here?

Yvette Lehman: I’m going to, read my mind. So what we often hear as two barriers, one scenario is that we’ve invested in a resource and it’s sitting on a shelf collecting dust, or if it’s digital, we have limited login and usage data. The other scenario that we’re hearing across many districts is that they’ve purchased a resource, but teachers are basically morphing that resource to suit their style of teaching.

Jon Orr: I know what’s happening here. What you just said to me, was like, know, know, what’s happening in that situation is that many teachers, especially teachers who are like us that taught for a really long time, that were like, I have a new resource. Okay, that means to me, maybe my pacing changes. And they’re using it as a pacing guide.

this is, I’m supposed to teach this and then this and then this. I have stuff for that. let me see what they have. No, I’m gonna go over here and I’m gonna just pull from my catalog, but I’ll still follow the same pacing. And so I’m modifying what the curriculum is, what this curriculum or this resource is actually helping me to achieve by just doing what I’m gonna do.

Kyle Pearce: Right. I might even go a step further, John. So yeah, the pacing is different. Now it’s like, oh shoot, chapter one does this instead of what I was doing or what the last resource did. But then when they open it up, I’m picturing, you know, I remember me doing this the first couple years of teaching where I went and I looked for the red boxes. You know, everyone know the red boxes, like key concepts. It would have maybe the key idea, the the formula, the procedure, the

This is what all the in the the four pages before this what we were trying to lead you to is this box right here and then I would try to teach that box now when I say teach I would try to have kids mimic me showing them what’s in that box right which could have been long division it could have been you know correlation coefficient you know for those who teach data management you know it doesn’t matter what the concept is but it’s like I’m actually missing. all of the reasons why we actually selected this resource as our next move as a district or as a school.

Jon Orr: That’s what I was going say is that this is the problem if we think that just supplying the resource or the curriculum or the textbook is going to fix a certain issue that we’re trying to fix. it’s in a way can be used as a foundational floor as long as we dedicate

strategies and implementation strategies throughout the year to help us get realistic about the level of implementation. Because now you’re hearing, this is the big buzzword we hear every, almost every single day I would say I hear this, right, is the fidelity of the curriculum. We have to teach to the fidelity of the curriculum, means like we’re teaching the way it’s supposed to be taught. I think we need to really get real about the level of support

we have to structure and plan for and dedicate resources to, to get to where we wanna go with that curriculum. Because we’re not say adding in, like if you, let’s say you were like saying like, we’re gonna invest in hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy this. But like, if you’re not like also matching that with the support you’re gonna provide, it’s like, you’re not probably gonna see the level of impact that you thought this was gonna actually get you.

Yvette Lehman: So let’s dig into some of the recommendations from research. So what do we do? And so you kind of started to mention it, John, it’s like, we have to have systems of support in place that are going to support the implementation. And one thing that the research is telling us is that oftentimes, imagine you go to a training on a new tool. Usually, you know, it’s a full day of training, everybody comes together and we focus a lot on the what and the how.

It’s logistics. It’s, you know, where you’re going to find this, how to navigate here. If it’s a digital tool, we’re getting people comfortable with the platform and we’re really, you know, exposing them to the lesson structure and all of those things. And that’s important to start. Like that is step one, just a high overview of how the tool, you know. Yeah, so sure.

Kyle Pearce: Otherwise it automatically will go on the shelf, right? Or stay in the LMS or something,

Yvette Lehman: But that is, you know, the bare minimum likely not going to result in either implementation or implementation with fidelity, because at the end of the day, teachers have to understand the why. So if you’re using this high quality instructional material to make shifts in instructional practice, that can work. When you have a really, really good resource.

The teacher can actually build their content knowledge and shift their pedagogy if they implement with fidelity. I think about my own experience with Context for Learning. Using Context for Learning the way that it was designed and intended transformed my understanding of conceptual math because the resource itself was so strong. so when we think about professional development around the implementation of a resource,

We need to think about what we always suggest, right? Which is a coordinated system of varying levels of support that definitely include modeling, coaching, collaboration, professional collaboration periods where teachers are on multiple touch points. Teachers are unpacking the lessons together. They’re looking at the unit. They’re looking at the why. And you you mentioned an example, Kyle, that I think was a perfect example. You know, one of my favorite topics, long division.

Yvette Lehman: In the grade five revised Ontario curriculum, the way that they approach long division is actually beautiful. It’s very conceptual. The way that they describe it in the teacher supports is that they’re going to move students from the array model using partial products to the flexible algorithm. Okay. It’s a beautiful progression. It’s really rooted in understanding. Resources here in Ontario have followed that progression and implemented lessons in that sequence.

But imagine I haven’t done that learning myself. I don’t even know how to use the array model for division. So then I go through the unit and I pick and choose the tasks and questions that lend themselves to the long division algorithm and I just teach those.

Jon Orr: Because you’re cherry picking what you know and what you believe is important about what you want students to know about that math concept.

Kyle Pearce: Well, and something that’s really interesting here. what you just gave is a beautiful, well, it’s not beautiful, actually. It’s a horrible picture of what it means to not be teaching with fidelity when we look at that. And if you want a definition, that is a great exemplar of what that looks like. And I want to back up for a second, too, because you had mentioned context for learning being one of these resources that you can learn a ton.

it often gets stuck on the shelf because it’s a much harder resource to do the cherry picking that John’s talking about, meaning you can’t just flip through that book and find the thing that you’re familiar with and grab it. So what a lot of people do is they just put it back on the shelf because they’re like, none of this is familiar to me. And therefore I’m out. I just don’t know what’s going on here, right? Or they’re thinking, I don’t have the time to take a chance on this.

resource here, right? And unfortunately, for resource and curriculum writers, they’re in a position where they’re trying to make it as accessible for educators as possible. But in doing so often opens the door, it invites this lack of fidelity that we’re describing here, right? Like it’s almost like as a means to try to give these, we’ll call them like familiar fence posts.

right? And I remember, you know, Mr. Hillman used to say that in our district there, you’ve had used to talk about fence posts and, know, like that familiar fence post is like, it allows you a starting point. But if you’re not willing to move away from that pole, that post, and try to figure out the rest, then we’re going to be doing a lot of the same. And the reality is, if you pick up any old curriculum resource in your school in your district,

And if you actually give it a good look, you’ll notice that a lot of the things that we beat, we’re talking about, we’re talking about conceptual understanding. A lot of these ideas were in those resources. They were just being skipped over and we can continue to buy more resources, newer, flashier, better looking, you know, organized to better fit the standards now. And the reality is, is if we’re going to continue

Kyle Pearce: doing the same things as we’ve articulated here, we’re not going to get anywhere. So let’s keep digging here. Like what, what can we do now?

Jon Orr: Hmm. Well, well, I was just going to add on here. And I think this is another lens to think about here, because I think what you’re saying, what we’ve just kind of recommended is that we do need to invest heavily in helping our teachers understand the why, but also the how and the when and the where of using that resource. I think what sometimes, and we hear this when we meet with our district leaders or district partners or people who are,

trying to figure out how to build sustainable math programs and math improvement plans is that they focus a lot on trying to get teachers to say, use that curriculum. And then all of a sudden it’s like, shalt use this curriculum. And almost like flip to the other side where all of a sudden it’s like, that’s our goal. We want everyone to use this. But all of a sudden is it, if we’re not focusing on the right things, then the focus becomes just following this guide that

we don’t really know what we’re doing anyway. And I think there’s some issues there to consider. Like, you’ve got like a quote about rigidity and the, you know, whether this is really what we’re trying to do in our classrooms.

Yvette Lehman: Yeah, and I love this quote where basically what it’s saying is that fidelity does not equal being rigid with the content. It just means that we’re honouring the integrity of the curriculum, of our standards, of the expectations. We are, an example where we’re not having fidelity is imagine that the lesson isn’t designed to be task-based, where students are positioned to do the reasoning and a variety of strategies are encouraged, but instead we’re

pre-teaching a strategy ahead of time and funneling everybody to that one solution, therefore diminishing discourse, removing thinking, that’s not fidelity. But what we’re also saying, not saying either, is that you have to teach this lesson this day in this order, no deviation from the plan. Of course, we want people to be able to use their professional judgment to decide that they need an extra day on this concept.

or that the task itself wasn’t culturally relevant for their students. So they’re going to change the context so that it is more relevant. Or they find that maybe, you the way that it was introduced wasn’t conceptual enough and they want to add in a manipulative. Like those are all instructional choices that are going to enhance the curriculum versus reducing the thinking and the cognitive demand of the tasks to fit our own comfort level, to fit what we’re familiar with and what we’ve always done.

So let’s talk about some other strategies that leaders can do if they’re in this position. The one that we’re gonna recommend actually starts at the beginning of the pilot process. So imagine you have teachers who are piloting the resources that are up for selection. Think about, can we have representation from every site, every building? And the reason that that is important is that if you leverage the pilot,

as because typically there’s money right around the pilot and around the resource selection process. If you could get a teacher from every site, that teacher then becomes the teacher leader in their building to support the rollout and implementation of the new tool. They’re the ones that are there every day championing the resource, helping their colleagues, being willing to model. When we actually place that teacher leader in the building, if we identify them from the start,

and through the pilot build their capacity and their understanding behind the why, or even just routines and structures for how to unpack a unit or a lesson. Now you’ve placed that person back into their building and they’re the one who’s there every day, next to their colleagues along for this journey. So one of the things that we can do, particularly let’s say if you don’t have money, like there’s no time for PLCs, there’s no time for training.

Can we leverage the pilot process to build teacher leader capacity so that ideally every building has somebody doing this work?

Kyle Pearce: I love it. I love it. think too, you know, if we, look at some of this work that we’re doing as we’re selecting a resource, being very clear as to why we’re selecting that resource and how it aligns with our vision, with our objectives that we have as a district is really key. And that’s going to mean that everyone in the supporting role, that’s our administrators, that’s our coaches and such are going to have to

know and understand why we’ve selected this resource and specifically how it’s going to address some of the content pieces that maybe we haven’t done so well with in the past so that there is some clarity around when I am looking through that resource because the reality is a pilot process, any type of, you know, actual introduction of this resource, we’re not going to be able to give them 100 % support on

every single piece of material inside of that curriculum. So being there to help them and model for them along the way, I think is going to be critical, but it also means that we have to be really clear about what it is that we’re hoping to see and understand. And especially if we have administrators who are trying to monitor how well the uptake is on this new resource.

they too need to understand. may not have to be able to teach the content themselves, but they need to be able to identify when it’s working and maybe when it isn’t right. And I think it’s, it’s really easy for us to see when there’s different pedagogical moves taking place in a classroom, but it’s all much harder for a district leader or an administrator in a building to be walking around and to really understand whether

The content in that resource is being taught with fidelity on this day or this unit or this month or this semester.

Jon Orr: Yeah, I think our, you know, we need to make sure that we are including those, our administrators and our leaders of our buildings and our districts in say this process, because like what you’re saying, Kyle, it is essential that these alignment is there. And we need to make sure that we can leverage those people to, you know, continue the work and make sure that we dedicate the resources to the work and making sure that this becomes the priority of where we’re trying to move, because without that alignment,

you know, that the money that we invested in this resource, you know, even though we as say, coordinators or coaches can dedicate time and resources to trying to implement this, we do need to make sure that the prioritization is there at the school level. So that that that resource can be utilized the way it’s intended to be utilized and the appropriate priority level is given to it as as as say we unpack say our school improvement goals.

Yvette Lehman: So let’s summarize some of our recommendations. So I think that the first one was that we can’t assume that this is going to happen automatically. So if we are positioning ourselves to purchase, alongside that purchase needs to be a plan for implementation. And that plan needs to include support and focus on the why. And so in an ideal scenario, which most people don’t find themselves in, but I like to sometimes talk an ideal and then we can backtrack from there.

In an ideal scenario, teachers are coming together routinely with the support of a skilled facilitator to unpack the learning, to unpack the standards, to unpack the assessment, to unpack the lessons so that they are well positioned to understand the why when they go to implement with their students, particularly the first time around. mean, one tip of advice may be for our leaders, if you’re thinking there’s no way I can do that with every single unit, that’s impossible. What if we picked

one unit at every grade level that was a critical high leverage concept and engaged in that process or with some grade levels this year and others next year but either way we have to have a plan for rollout we have to have a plan to support the why and the metacognitive process that goes into planning what should i be considering when i’m unpacking a unit when i’m unpacking a lesson we talked about the roles of teacher leaders in the building and so sometimes that’s an easier ask maybe it’s possible to build capacity of 30

It may not be possible to build capacity for 500, but can I identify one person in every building that I can provide some additional support to so that they’re positioned to support their colleagues in the building? We talked about the critical role of administrators. It’s really hard to do an observation and provide feedback. It’s really hard to bring the information back to the district if we don’t know what it should look like when it’s being done effectively with fidelity. And kind of our closing comment. is that if we’re relying on just compliance, if we’re saying things like, we bought the resource, you’re a professional, we put it in your hands.

The reality is it’s probably just not happening and you don’t know that it’s not happening. Like you, even if you think that teachers are implementing with fidelity, they likely aren’t because we probably aren’t monitoring the right things either.

Kyle Pearce: You know, everything you’ve said there and summarized is so important and so critical. I, you know, the, piece that I want, you know, our leaders, our school leaders, our teacher leaders to be thinking about is the fact that, you know, you said something about, you know, I know that it might be difficult or I know there isn’t the time to go through, every unit or to do as much as maybe we want or wish we could do.

But we also have to look at it the other way and say, if we don’t have the time, if we’re not willing or able to commit the time, then how do we anticipate or expect that our teachers are going to somehow find the time to do it on their own? Right. And I mean, I think what this is is really looking to find a balance between what is realistic and what can we do and achieve together. And that might mean that a rollout of a new resource may

be in small chunks, right? So to have an expectation that we’re going to have, you know, fidelity across the entire curriculum along all this resource for, you know, in one or two years is probably a very difficult thing to realistically achieve, right? So how do I break it down? How do I make it much more bite size? Because again, if there’s not enough time for me or for the district leaders, then

I don’t know where the time is going to be found for the educator as well, right? And I think if we think about that, we can stay realistic in our goals and we can actually meet them.

Jon Orr: Yeah, no, well said. Like, like I think when you reverse engineer the amount of support that is needed to have a teacher adopt a new resource or a new curriculum or a new strategy, it’s multiple touch points for each and every teacher to make that happen. And so when you start to, you know, reverse engineer how you can, you can provide that, those touch points and what you’re capable of as a, as a district or a school and what your resources you have access to. Like when you get real about

what that looks like and sounds like and what you can commit to, you have to then get real about what impact you actually will achieve by the end of the year. And the other thing that you touched on that is that part of that and synced with that reality of where you could end up if you dedicate the appropriate level of support to implement this is how will you know it’s actually occurring? You have to know, otherwise you’re gonna go through a year where we did some stuff.

But I don’t know if it’s actually translating into the way that I thought it was going to translate in our classrooms. And if I’m just waiting for student data, know, standardized test data to tell me that it worked, then it’s, you know, you’re relying on the wrong things. So we do need to strategically have plans around how to bring in this resource appropriately, that how do we dedicate appropriate level of support based off our constraints.

To make sure we get the impact we want which means we have to define that impact we want and how well we measure it by the end of the year these are all essential items to creating change and impact on math improvement and Hopefully, you know you had some big, you know big takeaways I know that we did when we started this work and you’ve got some takeaways to take away today and if you do You know want to take a deeper dive you want us to kind of help you with an audit and look at your unique situation head on over to

MakeMathMoments.com forward slash discovery. You can hop on a call with us and we can unpack this together with you and give you some actionable next steps on your math improvement plan journey.

Jon Orr:
All right, let’s talk about sustainable structures for lifelong learning. Because the question posed here is, and this is something for us to ponder, as a district leader, a math coordinator, a math coach, I want you to ponder this question. And the question is, are we developing a sustainable structure for lifelong learning around mathematics for the people that we’re supporting? Or are we building a compliance-driven PD calendar. And I think that’s the big question we want to talk about here today, because we talk every single day with math coordinators, math coaches across North America and the world around their structures, around what they’re doing to support learning in the classrooms, to support the wonderful educators that are working with students every day. And we see the gambit. We see teachers and coordinators and coaches supporting or trying to create sustainable models where we are encouraging growth and continued lifelong learning. But we’re also seeing like, this is the way that we want this done. And this is the way it needs to get done. And this is the calendar that’s going to help us get there. And thou shalt all do this strategy. So we see like both sides of like what’s what people are trying to do. And there are there are, you know, People believe strongly on both ends of like this kind of, in a way, this spectrum of the way that we should be trying to support and encourage change in mathematics instruction for our students. So let’s dig in, guys. What’s some of the research say?

Yvette Lehman:
I think you brought up a good question. I like how you said, you let’s ponder this. I don’t know that we have the answer today or, or that we’re going to, you know, solve all of these problems. But I like the idea that you mentioned about, know that there’s research out there. There’s sound research in any, in some cases, people might say, we know what best practice looks like in mathematics. And now that we know what best practice looks like and sounds like, we just need to do it. Teachers just need to do it.

Jon Orr:
Right. Just do it.

Yvette Lehman:
And so that’s where we find ourselves in a situation. And I recently read an article that was published. this was back in 2021. So if Jim Knight has changed his position on this topic, you know, reach out to us, we’d love to debate it. But in this particular article, it was from the learning professional from learning forward. And he talked about the distinction between outside in PD and inside out PD. So outside in PD is what we were just describing, which is basically this compliance driven These are the best practices. know that this is what we should be doing to have a positive impact on student achievement. Do it.

Kyle Pearce:
Yeah, not going to waste any time. Just get to work, get it done, and let’s go.

Jon Orr:
Right, yeah. You know what, exactly, you know what these are. It’s like we kick off, the kickoff day’s in August. We’re going to bring in guest speakers on best practices and we’re going to model it, we’re gonna talk about it, and we’re gonna say like, this is what we expect to see in our classrooms when we come do walkthroughs.

Yvette Lehman:
And in this article, what Jim argues is that that approach of outside in compliance driven professional development rarely has an impact on the classroom. Like we rarely see it transfer to significant shifts in practice just because I heard somebody tell me that this was the best practice or I should be doing it this way.

Jon Orr:
Right, right, yeah. Like I think, you know, people are nodding their heads right now as well. It’s like they have been butting their heads up against, you know, teachers who are say resistant to change or also going like they weren’t resistant to change, but I just don’t see it consistently happening in the classroom when I thought we, you know, this made sense to them. And it could be in a one-on-one coaching environment, it could be your PLCs, it could be in your large scale pull-outs, but I think we often see that we don’t have, and I’m going to use words that people tell us all the time, is that I don’t see buy-in on the strategy we’re trying to say or the strategies we’re trying to see in our classroom to support students in best practices for mathematics learning.

Kyle Pearce:
Well, you know, it’s interesting that like somehow along the way we thought that that might work, you know, like I think we’ve all found ourself there. I’ve done it. You know, I’ve I’ve event you’ve been, you know, in the same spot. We’ve co planned these types of events. Well, I was just going to say like, John, this is exactly what I was going to go to is say like in the classroom, when have we ever just lectured at students and basically like shown them the mathematics and then like the entire group is like good to go ready to rock like no like they need the support they need the purposeful practice they need to experience this work and typically in the outside in style or format of PD it tends to be the one and done right and then even if it’s not one and done like even if it’s like we’re gonna do like you know a series you know and like maybe for you know a couple times in the semester this speaker is going to come back to share really that outside in PD is really most helpful, I think for awareness. So it’s like, it’s like, this exists. Like, you know, this, this might be something that we might want to strive for, but I don’t necessarily know how to do it tomorrow. And just because I’m going to think a little bit more about it over the weekend or over the summer doesn’t mean I’m going to be able to feel confident and ready to change what I’m doing in my classroom in order to sort of reach the same sort of experience or approach that maybe was being presented in this outside in PD. So, you know, I’m really eager here to kind of dig in. And I want to say, I’m going to just put my foot down. I don’t care about you two. I don’t care about you two, but I’m not going to say that outside in PD can’t be helpful at times. Right. But let’s dig in here and event like break down for us like what would be the opposite of outside in PD and what I believe you know Jim Knight is saying is probably the one that we want to be focusing more of our time and attention on.

Yvette Lehman:
So the article suggests that let’s imagine we’re trying to implement high impact strategies, that we can still lead teachers to the implementation of those strategies by putting them in the position to identify the problem, by unpacking student thinking, and then through the support of a skilled facilitator in seeking solutions to the challenges that they’re facing in their classroom, we can actually encourage the implementation of these strategies that are going to have a positive impact, but it’s directly in response to what they’re teaching and the students in front of them. Rather than being this, you know, well, this is the best way to do it, so now just go and do it. And it feels completely disconnected from the learning that’s happening in their classroom today and tomorrow. But if we start with the learning, with the unit that they’re currently, right, like what they’re currently working on,

Jon Orr:
problems of practice.

Yvette Lehman:
But in order for this inside out approach to work where it’s teacher driven and response to student data based on what they’re currently teaching in their classroom at this time, so it’s timely, it’s relevant, we have to have structures in place for collaboration. We have to value teacher collaboration and create space for it. And we also arguably need the support of a skilled facilitator to guide us toward those research-based approaches.

Jon Orr:
sure, for sure. And it’s like, it’s, people are not in their heads, like, like, it’s a no no brainer. Because in a way, like, this is what we were doing in our math classrooms for the last 10 years is trying to position students to be in a curious moment or a curious position to generate problems that they want to solve, or steer them to two problems that they want to solve, or want to know the answers or be be more curious. This is part of our, our three-part framework for math lessons is if we can get our students in that position to be like, I’m really curious about how to get from here to here, and I want to take a step forward, but I don’t know how to get there, then that’s where the skilled facilitator gets to navigate that situation and help a kid develop the skills or develop the ideas or the connections to help get over that hump. And then they have that internalized process of like, I did this. This is what we were doing in our classrooms, which is what we need to be doing with our educators. It also reminds me of that, you know, the book Switch, we talked about this, we talked about this a lot on the podcast and also in our calls about motivation. You know, like if you’re coming at it from, shalt do this, or you know, we think this is good. What you’re doing is you’re hitting one of the three areas that you need to hit when you’re trying to help someone change. And those three areas is like, usually when you’re like, this outside in approach is really addressing probably the rider in the rider, elephant pathway analogy, which means like you’ve got this elephant, there’s a rider on top of the elephant, you’re in the forest or jungle or something, and you’re trying to move down this pathway, at the end of the pathway is change. The rider is like the logic part. And I think we try to do that in that outside in. It’s like, logically, this makes sense. Look, we can show you this makes sense. Here’s what it could look like. Here’s the reason, you know, and then the pathway, you have to clear that pathway, which is the second part. Sometimes we do that. Here’s a resource that can help you get there. But the part you’re missing, which is the part that the inside out method addresses is the elephant, which is the bigger component, because if the elephant doesn’t wanna go down the pathway, you’re not going. Which is the fears, our problems, our emotional side of our brains that we have to account for. And I think that’s the part that you’re talking about, or Jim Knight’s talking about in the inside out, which means we need teachers to be like, here are my problems of practice, or here’s a content area that I’ve been struggling at that I just wish that I could pluck this pebble from my shoe. Like we have to come at the support we provide by addressing the elephant and then the rider and then clear the pathway.

Kyle Pearce:
Well, you know, and I think the first thing that comes to mind. again, yes, it seems logical, but boy, boy, that seems like hard work, you know? And I think what we end up doing, I always, I always make the comment that, you know, as humans, we are sort of like the dumbest smart creature there is out there, you know? And why I say that is because we know from the data, we know that if We bring in the outside in PD and we bring in the speaker and we try to, we’re constantly utilizing that model in our minds, even though the data is telling us that we’re not going to actually see the results we’re after. We’re not going to see implementation. We still do it because it seems like it’s more efficient, you know, and you’ll look at it you go, if I just book and you know, book a big hall and bring everybody together and like, and we’ll make sure everybody’s experience this thing. It’s like what we’ve really done is we’ve accomplished an awareness piece, and really nothing more. And I think one of the big challenges, this is where I think a lot of listeners are probably listening and going like, how do we get started knowing what we know, when budget or time or resources are limited, inside our schools or grade bands or in our districts. How like how do we go about trying to actually take what we know is is is reality what we know is true what we know is most effective and actually allow ourselves to I guess be given the grace that this will take time and it’s not going to be a problem we solve overnight like how do we help people take steps in that direction so they can start doing something that will actually be making some sort of impact along this journey.

Yvette Lehman:
think, John, you already made the analogy or the connection to the approach we take in the classroom, which is like what you just described, Kyle, is exactly like rushing to the algorithm. It’s like we can teach the algorithm upfront because that’s probably faster and more efficient, but we know the lasting impact is minimal. And that’s the same for this approach for professional development. So your question, Kyle, was how do we do this with limitations? Well, I guess what I would say back is what if you don’t do it? And if you don’t, you’re going to keep having the same results that you’re currently having and you’re likely going to have very little change. So let’s unpack some strategies for overcoming maybe some of those barriers that you identified.

Jon Orr:
Yeah, well, totally.

Kyle Pearce:
If you’re watching on YouTube, John’s like squirming around over there. He wants to hop in here.

Jon Orr:
Well, I was going to say, sometimes it’s because there are pathways forward. We are identifying that the inside out method with accommodation, and we’ll talk about maybe what that exactly looks like here with the outside in method as a source to move things along. But there are pathways forward for this fractal way of using those two in combination from the district level down to, say, the school level down to, say, the PLC level down to the classroom level. There is research that suggests how to support teachers along this continuum using, say, the inside out approach at, say, that fractal level. in a way, there’s the pathway forward. I think what we need to decide when we’re in schools or in school districts is the expected outcome and get real about the level of commitment we’re going to commit to achieving the results we want. Because I think what’s happening is like, We all want change to happen, but because there is this very carefully crafted pathway to get change, it does require, like you’re saying, Yvette and Kyle, it does require resources like one-on-one support resources, like dedication for collaboration, like appropriate time committed to making all of this happen. A coordinated effort is there, but we have to as at the school level or the district level have to decide where the priority is and what priorities that we can commit to achieving that. we have the pathway, which we do, can we commit to that? And if we do commit at this level, because there’s an ideal, and I think we just know that there’s no budget for the actual ideal, because if there, you know, we can’t say have one-on-one coaches for every single teacher, every single week, or every single day. We can’t have, say, collaboration happening all this time. But we do have to then decide, what can we commit, knowing that these are good practices to create change, and then get real on what actual results will happen, and then being OK with that plan forward? Because I think that’s where the mismatch right now is happening, is that we are just out of whack on like, what is commitment level is needed to achieve the dream expectations we think is gonna happen when we do an outside in approach.

Kyle Pearce:
Right, right. And I think basically what you’re saying is that I think we have to get real with what it is that we truly want to accomplish and actually set out to figure out a way to do that work. And that means taking the responsibility that we’re going to have to measure that and we’re going to have to name it specifically. We’re going to have to be able to know what that looks like if we get that goal and we’re not talking about fixing all of mathematics problems or all of education’s problems we’re talking about actually taking a bite sized a realistic bite sized chunk into a challenge so that we can actually make some real progress instead of essentially because we talk about limited resources but like we still are spending the money and we’re just spinning our wheels doing things and doing things and doing things but not really knowing what sort of result we’re going to get. see standardized tests aren’t really changing. So we know that’s not happening. But then if we even zoom in a little bit closer, we’re not actually seeing any of the changes that we had set out to achieve. And in many cases, it’s because we haven’t really identified specifically enough what those changes are that we want to be looking for.

Yvette Lehman:
So maybe where we need to start is just to make a commitment to ourselves, which is we are going to be mindful of the compliance-driven PD calendar thou shalt, whether you like it or not, implement or, you know, leverage these strategies. So we’re gonna be very mindful of that type of thinking. And then also strive in every way that we can to create a system that inspires lifelong learning that puts the teacher in the driver’s seat. And we always say this about the classroom, you know, the person doing the talking is doing the thinking. The person identifying the problem and digging in is doing the learning. So we know that that’s a model that we need to replicate for our adult learners as well, where they’re the ones doing the talking, they’re the ones unpacking and doing the thinking and digging in with support from a knowledgeable other or skilled facilitator. I think that part is key. So you mentioned There’s no way, you know, most districts have the time or funds, even just thinking about the release time from the classroom that it would take, you know, the time away from students to really dig into this work. So what is realistic or bite sized or appropriate to start to put some of these conditions into place? One idea that I’ve been thinking through lately is, you know, let’s imagine the junior curriculum, my favorite curriculum. There is no way you could develop a professional development model to help teachers dig into and unpack every concept in the junior curriculum. Like if you can, that’s amazing. If you have an abundance of collaboration time and coaching support, wonderful. But the reality is it’s probably not going to happen in most districts. So what is, and some districts do this, right? They identify a key concept. They’re like, we’re going to tackle this key concept this year and you know we’re not going to strengthen every single unit teachers engage in or interact with but we’re going to strengthen these key concepts. Is there a place is it more realistic to say that by the end of this year our junior teachers our fourth through sixth grade teachers let’s say are going to strengthen their understanding of strategies to support multiplication and division and we’re going to give them you know, these structures that are collaborative in nature. So it’s not like they’re all going to come out to a big release, 50, a hundred people in a ballroom. And I’m going to front load them with all of these different multiplication strategies that they’re likely not going to then take back and transfer to the classroom next week. But I think that maybe the strategy is like, we talk about this all the time, like fewer grades, a more narrow focus. using your data to identify where are the pockets of opportunity within your district? Like are you targeting eighth grade because you see that the transition from eighth to ninth is problematic and you know that that’s an area to target. Are you targeting fourth and fifth because you know that by the time your standardized test comes in sixth, students are demonstrating significant gaps? Strategically identifying pockets to target, but with the goal of not only strengthening teaching and learning, but establishing a culture where teachers are inspired and empowered to do more learning on their own because they have a taste of it. Like they’ve been put in situations where they are empowered. They are the ones who can find the solutions with support. It’s not always people from above, people from the board, people from outside coming in and telling them how to do it.

Kyle Pearce:
Hmm. I love that. And you know, I think as you get more narrow and you do what you can do, right? So if we plan based around what is possible and we create a structure and an opportunity for us to do some of the learning within that structure, when we get more narrow, there’s a little bit of pressure in two ways. One pressure is, this enough? Like, are we doing enough? And the reality is, is that we know what will happen if we try to do it the other way. right? We’re not going to get any impact when we narrow down. It actually creates a little bit of accountability for everyone, including leadership, right? Where we go. This is what we’re working on. So like, let’s do this really well and let’s monitor it. Let’s refine it. Let’s keep making progress there. So I love all the suggestions you’ve given. And really what I’m hearing is we need to make it more bite size. So if someone’s saying, I don’t have resources, I don’t have time, I don’t have this, I don’t have that.

Jon Orr:
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Pearce:
Well, guess what? What you have is what you have. And that amount of time, we now need to make a decision as to how am going to use that most effectively? Or do I use it and try to use it really ineffectively? Like, let’s make it effective and let’s accept the reality that every district is going to have different resources and different opportunities to dig in here. But let’s make it make an impact when we do that work.

Jon Orr:
Yeah, like, I think you’ve nailed it, right? Like, this narrowness is basically saying, like, yes, like, if you had unlimited resources, unlimited funds, unlimited support, you could design it following that pathway. But when you have, say, your unique constraints, it’s, how can I do some of that? Like, how can I dead, like which grade level could I target to have say, one on one continued follow up coaching and also have the collaborative support at the PC level and also get what everyone else gets at say those large school pullouts and all those things are coordinated. Like, we have resources in every district we’ve talked to, we can always do that at some level, which is where your pathway for success and support is following that inside out method with say outside in as say a source for say new ideas when we need new ideas after we’ve identified targets that we do want to say strengthen and we realized, hey, we don’t have what it takes to hit that target. want to say get say outside help here to help us fix that gap. We can always dedicate resources to follow that path. It’s just the scale is different depending on your resources available, which then just says, well, if that’s my scale, I can go down this pathway, then I’m going to see results with that small group. And that’s the results I’m going to use as like, it worked. I’m seeing impact in this area. I’ve got grade levels changing. I’m like, maybe in a couple of years, I’m going to see that that changes into standardized test result changes as well. And then stop measuring, you know, not to stop measuring, but stop comparing or using other measurements that aren’t that to dictate whether you’re on the right path or not.

Kyle Pearce:
I love that, John. So friends, listen, if you are interested in figuring out where you might focus your time and attention on next, you should head on over to makemathmoments.com forward slash report, and you can dig in to understand where things are going well and where you might wanna focus your attention on currently so that you can take your very unique situation and create a plan that will have an impact.

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